Always-Folded Method

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
On Sunday 11 October 2009, hsitz wrote:

> Noel Henson wrote:
> >> text, user text, preformatted user text, labeled user text,
> >> preformatted labeld user text and tables.  Only the metadata text
> >> blocks would be folded to one level higher.
> >
> > So how do we normalize it so the functionality can be shared?
> >
> > Noel
>
> Noel -- Not quite sure what the question is.  Everything should work
> exactly as you were describing, except that metadata blocks are treated
> differently. If you want, you can fold all regular text to foldnestmax
> (if their flag is set) and fold metadata to foldnestmax+1.  What issue
> are you concerned about?

It the 'treated differently' thing. But never mind. It's minutiae.


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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Herbert Sitz
On Sunday 11 October 2009, hsitz wrote:

> Noel Henson wrote:
> >> In any case I think VO should be set up so that a person can have
> >> their text blocks indented to any level they want.  The important
> >> thing is that however they're indented the text blocks are "attached"
> >> to the immediately preceding headline node.
> >
> > This can be VERY difficult; I mean supporting any indent level. Yes,
> > it can
> > be handled with a function but highlighting can be quite an issue.
> >
> > Noel
>
> Not an issue with syntax file I use.  All text blocks shares same
> highlight regardless of indent or fold level.  What's the problem you're
> seeing?

Yes. But the current syntax highlighting setup causes blocks and indents
that don't follow the VO indenting specification (well not really
a specification but an 'agreed upon' set of rules) aren't highlighted
properly. There was discussion about this in the days of old. Highlighting
works much more quickly without the visual reinforcement that people
preferred.

Noel

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Re: Always-Folded Method

David J Patrick-2
Noel Henson wrote:
> On Sunday 11 October 2009, hsitz wrote:

>> Not an issue with syntax file I use.  All text blocks shares same
>> highlight regardless of indent or fold level.  What's the problem you're
>> seeing?
>
> Yes. But the current syntax highlighting setup causes blocks and indents
> that don't follow the VO indenting specification (well not really
> a specification but an 'agreed upon' set of rules) aren't highlighted
> properly. There was discussion about this in the days of old. Highlighting
> works much more quickly without the visual reinforcement that people
> preferred.

I'm really not sure how it happens, but what I'd like to see with
regards to fold-status syntax-highlighting, is a change in _background_
color (subtle) that indicates folded content below. If we are at that
stage, splitting hairs and working out the nitty-gritty, and if fold
behavior is differentiated between folded with sub-headings, folded with
text and folded with metadata, in my wildest dreams the background of
the line would have status that reflects this, although the color of the
text would be driven by other things;

fold hides subheadings = strongest bg shading
fold hides no subheadings, but has body text = strong bg shading
fold hides no sub-headings or text, but has metadata = subtle bg shading
no folds = no shading

this is of course in conjunction with text indications of folded
content, but would allow a strong sense at a glance.
Perhaps I'm just dreaming in technicolour.

djp
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Re: Always-Folded Method

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Sunday 11 October 2009 12:45:23 Noel Henson wrote:
> On Sunday 11 October 2009, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Sunday 11 October 2009 10:45:31 Noel Henson wrote:
> > > On Saturday 10 October 2009, hsitz wrote:
> > > > Noel Henson wrote:

> > > I believe that we need to experiment a bit more. Body text is
> > > particularly sticky because of historic reasons. I believe that body
> > > text should always be indented to the same level as the child of a
> > > heading:
> > >
> > > Text
> > >
> > >     : blah blah blah
> > >     : blah blah blah
> > >
> > > Others believe that body text should be at the same indent level as
> > > the heading.
> > >
> > > Text
> > >
> > > : blah blah blah
> > > : blah blah blah
> >
> > Oh HECK no! Body text is ABOUT its parent, not IN ADDITION TO its
> > parent.
>
> I'm not quite sure what you're saying here but...  Body text IS about the
> parent.

I was saying heck no to body text being the same indent level as the headline
it's about. I'm saying heck no to the following:

Joan of Arc
: Joan of Arc was a teen age woman who helped the French win the 100
: Year's War. She saw visions telling her to lead the French soldiers
: to victory, and did so.
     Conviction on heresy
     : Joan of Arc was convicted of heresy, mostly for political reasons.
     : She was burned at the stake.
     Rehabilitation
     : A few years after her execution, Joan of Arc was posthumously
     : declared innocent by the Pope. She was raised to sainthood in
     : the twentieth century.

The placement of the body text in the preceding outline is, to me, an
atrocity. That's what I said "heck no" to. Each set of body text in the
preceding should have been indented right one tab.


> It belongs to the parent. Just like children belong to the parent.

Exactly.

> If the body text was about a child, it would be indented underneath the
> child.

Yes. If body text is one indent further in than a headline somewhere above it,
that means the body text is about the headline and the body text is a "child"
of the headline. If body text is the same level as a headline, it means that
body text is the child of that headline's parent.

> If VO adopted that philosophy, then syntax highlighting, folding and
> post processing would be much easier. In summary, anything that is an
> attribute of a parent is indented under the parent.

I thought VO adopted that philosophy a long time ago.

>
> Parent
>
>     : This is text about the parent. It cannot be about a child
>     : because it comes immediately under the parent.
>
>     Child
>
>   : this is the child that clearly belongs to the parent

Yes. AFAIK this is the way VO has always worked, and is the only way that
makes sense.

>
> In my (limited) mind, an outline is very simple. There is a heading and
> there are objects the heading can contain including other headings.
>
> Heading
>     Headings
>     Text
>     Tables
>     User Text
>     Preformatted User Text
>     Labeled User Text
>     Preformatted Labeled User Text

Yes. Exactly.

>
> When done with text not indented under the heading, it is no longer clear
> visually that the text is contained in (or is about) the heading.

That's exactly why I said Heck No! Body text at the same indentation as the
heading it's "about" is illogical from a human standpoint, even if a computer
program can deal with it.

> This
> makes syntax highlighting, fold level computation and post processing more
> difficult; there is that exception  case for text.

If there's an exception, my VO doesn't know about it. My VO folds body text
exactly how you describe above. IIRC, ever since VO acquired body text, it's
always folded the way you'd expect if body text is indented farther right than
the headline it is about.

>
> I'm not arguing for change here. Some have one way of doing things, some
> another. For me, I like the visual cleanliness of having body text indented
> under the heading it belongs to.

I agree. VO already correctly folds body text one indent right of the headline
it belongs to.

Thanks

SteveT
>
> Noel

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Sunday 11 October 2009 13:28:21 Noel Henson wrote:

> On Sunday 11 October 2009, hsitz wrote:
> > Steve Litt wrote:
> > > On Sunday 11 October 2009 10:45:31 Noel Henson wrote:
> > >> Text
> > >>
> > >>     : blah blah blah
> > >>     : blah blah blah
> > >
> > > Oh HECK no! Body text is ABOUT its parent, not IN ADDITION TO its
> > > parent.
> >
> > Steve -- IMO you need to get past concept of indent level determining
> > outline level.  Personally, there are times when I'd like to have all
> > flush be rendered flush left with no indent, regardless of there outline
> > level. Seems you're tied to concept of outline level as being tied to
> > indent level. There's no (good) reason to restrict it in that way.
> > Expand your mind.  ;)
> >
> > In any case I think VO should be set up so that a person can have their
> > text blocks indented to any level they want.  The important thing is
> > that however they're indented the text blocks are "attached" to the
> > immediately preceding headline node.
> >
> > -- Herb
>
> Herb,
>
> This can be VERY difficult; I mean supporting any indent level. Yes, it can
> be handled with a function but highlighting can be quite an issue.
>
> Noel

If only one indentation style can be implemented, it should be the one where
every child of a headline, including its body text, is one tab to its right.
That's how I see VO as a tool.

As for presentations, that's an entirely different matter because a relatively
simple script could be made to output LaTeX making it look pretty much how you
want, with whatever colors you want. It could even strip the colons out of
body text as long as there's a clear way to identify body text. Both you and I
have already done similar stuff converting otl 2 html.

So VO editing would have a uniform indentation style, but output could be
tailored by a simple (probably outline based) config file.

SteveT

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Re: Always-Folded Method

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by Herbert Sitz
hsitz wrote:
>
> Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Sunday 11 October 2009 10:45:31 Noel Henson wrote:
>>> Text
>>>
>>>     : blah blah blah
>>>     : blah blah blah
>>>
>> Oh HECK no! Body text is ABOUT its parent, not IN ADDITION TO its parent.

While I tend to agree, as indented text is a quicker visual parse,
because VO works just fine indented or not, I am dabbling in both
styles, to determine for myself how horrendous it might be.

>
> In any case I think VO should be set up so that a person can have their text
> blocks indented to any level they want.  The important thing is that however
> they're indented the text blocks are "attached" to the immediately preceding
> headline node.

Can we agree that indented text is default usage, but make no moves to
break it otherwise ? I can see how body text indented is preferable, I
can also imagine that in some cases (like when you are indented 5
levels) that text fully left-justified would offer a wider text column,
and therefor improved readability. I intend to use all sorts of things
embedded within outlines (like usenet cookbook recipes) and in those
cases, forced indenting might be less than ideal.

djp
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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Sunday 11 October 2009, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Sunday 11 October 2009 12:45:23 Noel Henson wrote:
> > On Sunday 11 October 2009, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > On Sunday 11 October 2009 10:45:31 Noel Henson wrote:
> > > > On Saturday 10 October 2009, hsitz wrote:
> > > > > Noel Henson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I believe that we need to experiment a bit more. Body text is
> > > > particularly sticky because of historic reasons. I believe that
> > > > body text should always be indented to the same level as the child
> > > > of a heading:
> > > >
> > > > Text
> > > >
> > > >     : blah blah blah
> > > >     : blah blah blah
> > > >
> > > > Others believe that body text should be at the same indent level
> > > > as the heading.
> > > >
> > > > Text
> > > >
> > > > : blah blah blah
> > > > : blah blah blah
> > >
> > > Oh HECK no! Body text is ABOUT its parent, not IN ADDITION TO its
> > > parent.
> >
> > I'm not quite sure what you're saying here but...  Body text IS about
> > the parent.
>
> I was saying heck no to body text being the same indent level as the
> headline it's about. I'm saying heck no to the following:
>
> Joan of Arc
>
> : Joan of Arc was a teen age woman who helped the French win the 100
> : Year's War. She saw visions telling her to lead the French soldiers
> : to victory, and did so.
>
>      Conviction on heresy
>
>      : Joan of Arc was convicted of heresy, mostly for political
>      : reasons. She was burned at the stake.
>
>      Rehabilitation
>
>      : A few years after her execution, Joan of Arc was posthumously
>      : declared innocent by the Pope. She was raised to sainthood in
>      : the twentieth century.
>
> The placement of the body text in the preceding outline is, to me, an
> atrocity. That's what I said "heck no" to. Each set of body text in the
> preceding should have been indented right one tab.

Ack.

>
> > It belongs to the parent. Just like children belong to the parent.
>
> Exactly.
>
> > If the body text was about a child, it would be indented underneath
> > the child.
>
> Yes. If body text is one indent further in than a headline somewhere
> above it, that means the body text is about the headline and the body
> text is a "child" of the headline. If body text is the same level as a
> headline, it means that body text is the child of that headline's
> parent.
>
> > If VO adopted that philosophy, then syntax highlighting, folding and
> > post processing would be much easier. In summary, anything that is an
> > attribute of a parent is indented under the parent.
>
> I thought VO adopted that philosophy a long time ago.

There were many discussions about it but there were many dissenting
opinions then. So I modified the scripts and highlighting to allow both
behaviors.

>
> > Parent
> >
> >     : This is text about the parent. It cannot be about a child
> >     : because it comes immediately under the parent.
> >
> >     Child
> >
> >   : this is the child that clearly belongs to the parent
>
> Yes. AFAIK this is the way VO has always worked, and is the only way
> that makes sense.
>
> > In my (limited) mind, an outline is very simple. There is a heading
> > and there are objects the heading can contain including other
> > headings.
> >
> > Heading
> >     Headings
> >     Text
> >     Tables
> >     User Text
> >     Preformatted User Text
> >     Labeled User Text
> >     Preformatted Labeled User Text
>
> Yes. Exactly.
>
> > When done with text not indented under the heading, it is no longer
> > clear visually that the text is contained in (or is about) the
> > heading.
>
> That's exactly why I said Heck No! Body text at the same indentation as
> the heading it's "about" is illogical from a human standpoint, even if a
> computer program can deal with it.
>
> > This
> > makes syntax highlighting, fold level computation and post processing
> > more difficult; there is that exception  case for text.
>
> If there's an exception, my VO doesn't know about it. My VO folds body
> text exactly how you describe above. IIRC, ever since VO acquired body
> text, it's always folded the way you'd expect if body text is indented
> farther right than the headline it is about.

Again, a long time ago, there were (and probably still are) those that like
the (from my perspective) the non-intuitive way. If we want to ditch the
non-indented type of body text (and user text and preformatted text and
user preformatted text, etc, etc), I'm all for it. It would speed things up
on large outlines.

>
> > I'm not arguing for change here. Some have one way of doing things,
> > some another. For me, I like the visual cleanliness of having body
> > text indented under the heading it belongs to.
>
> I agree. VO already correctly folds body text one indent right of the
> headline it belongs to.
>
> Thanks
>
> SteveT
>
> > Noel

Noel

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
On Sunday 11 October 2009, David J Patrick wrote:
> Can we agree that indented text is default usage, but make no moves to
> break it otherwise ? I can see how body text indented is preferable, I
> can also imagine that in some cases (like when you are indented 5
> levels) that text fully left-justified would offer a wider text column,
> and therefor improved readability. I intend to use all sorts of things
> embedded within outlines (like usenet cookbook recipes) and in those
> cases, forced indenting might be less than ideal.

That WOULD require some serious thought. Not from a VO standpoint but from
those of the post processors that have already been created. It could be
a big issue. I know from my personal perspective that it would affect the
scripts I've created: otlhead, otlgrep, otlreorder, otltail, otl2table,
otlsplit, otl2ooimpress, otl2html.py and otl2tags.

Noel

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
On Sunday 11 October 2009 19:24:39 David J Patrick wrote:
> hsitz wrote:
> > Steve Litt wrote:

> Can we agree that indented text is default usage, but make no moves to
> break it otherwise ? I can see how body text indented is preferable, I
> can also imagine that in some cases (like when you are indented 5
> levels) that text fully left-justified would offer a wider text column,
> and therefor improved readability. I intend to use all sorts of things
> embedded within outlines (like usenet cookbook recipes) and in those
> cases, forced indenting might be less than ideal.
>
> djp

Wait a minute -- I think maybe we've been talking about two different things.

I thought you were talking about body text being flush with its parent
headline. I doubt anyone will ever talk me out of my opinion that that's an
abomination.

But what I hear you saying in the preceding quoted text is about body text, no
matter its parentage, going from column 1 to column 76. Is that what
everyone's talking about? If so, I have a possible idea...

Of course you've always been able to start body text in column 1, but it folds
funny (it also looks funny, but that's none of my business -- I simply
wouldn't use that style indentation). Anyway, for those who want margin to
margin body text, and I have no idea how difficult this would be -- Noel would
know, but I wonder if a special case could be made of body text whose colon
started in line 1. Perhaps such body text would fold AS IF it's the child of
the first headline above it. David -- I think if I read you right, this would
satisfy you, and do so without a complete remake of our entire folding and
indentation philosophy.

Noel -- I have no idea how difficult that would be, so please disregard if it's
a bear. Also, if what I'm saying is not what you guys meant, please forget I
ever wrote this.

Thanks

SteveT

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Re: Always-Folded Method

David J Patrick-2
Steve Litt wrote:
> Wait a minute -- I think maybe we've been talking about two different things.
umm.. I think we're talking about the same thing, but from different
perspectives.
>
> I thought you were talking about body text being flush with its parent
> headline. I doubt anyone will ever talk me out of my opinion that that's an
> abomination.
I think the question is; should body text be supported at ANY indent
level ? While single-tab indent from parent is what sane, healthy people
would choose, some deviants seem to enjoy putting it directly below the
parent and it still works (god help them) and then the logical extension
is to ask; "can I put it HERE ? how about HERE ?" and some even feel
that you should be able to put the body text at any indent level at all,
and it should still work, y'know, except for the inevitable psychosis.

> Anyway, for those who want margin to
> margin body text, and I have no idea how difficult this would be -- Noel would
> know, but I wonder if a special case could be made of body text whose colon
> started in line 1. Perhaps such body text would fold AS IF it's the child of
> the first headline above it. David -- I think if I read you right, this would
> satisfy you, and do so without a complete remake of our entire folding and
> indentation philosophy.
Personally, I have no great need for big changes to body text handling,
and I wouldn't be caught out drinking with the non-indented-body-text
sorts of people, but there are times when I DO get a hankering for
full-width text.

>
> Noel -- I have no idea how difficult that would be, so please disregard if it's
> a bear. Also, if what I'm saying is not what you guys meant, please forget I
> ever wrote this.

This issue is not worth making Noel jump through tiny burning hoops, as
nothing is really broken. There is just this wee question about the very
nature of an outline;

Is an outline purely driven by indent levels (which may be the case,
programatically) or should the relationship of some elements be defined
by it's position in regard to (immediately following, not necessarily
indented from) a parent ?

thorny ?
interesting!
djp
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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
On Monday 12 October 2009, David J Patrick wrote:
> Steve Litt wrote:
> > Wait a minute -- I think maybe we've been talking about two different
> > things.
>
> umm.. I think we're talking about the same thing, but from different
> perspectives.

We're not, actually. However, I'm thinking about it.

> > I thought you were talking about body text being flush with its parent
> > headline. I doubt anyone will ever talk me out of my opinion that
> > that's an abomination.
>
> I think the question is; should body text be supported at ANY indent
> level ? While single-tab indent from parent is what sane, healthy people
> would choose, some deviants seem to enjoy putting it directly below the
> parent and it still works (god help them) and then the logical extension
> is to ask; "can I put it HERE ? how about HERE ?" and some even feel
> that you should be able to put the body text at any indent level at all,
> and it should still work, y'know, except for the inevitable psychosis.

It's vim. You can put body text anywhere you want. Even the first line of
the file. You can even get rid of the colon-space marker at the beginning
of the line. You have complete freedom. The ramifications of that freedom
are currently:

1. Body text highlighting will not work for arbitrary body text
indentation. But that's and easy fix. Just discard the 'contained' elements
of the highlighting.

2. It breaks the Vim Outliner file format specification; which I need
formalize.

3. None of the existing post processing scripts that have been written to
date will properly process arbitrarily indented body text; at least none
that I know of.

>
> > Anyway, for those who want margin to
> > margin body text, and I have no idea how difficult this would be --
> > Noel would know, but I wonder if a special case could be made of body
> > text whose colon started in line 1. Perhaps such body text would fold
> > AS IF it's the child of the first headline above it. David -- I think
> > if I read you right, this would satisfy you, and do so without a
> > complete remake of our entire folding and indentation philosophy.
>
> Personally, I have no great need for big changes to body text handling,
> and I wouldn't be caught out drinking with the non-indented-body-text
> sorts of people, but there are times when I DO get a hankering for
> full-width text.
>
> > Noel -- I have no idea how difficult that would be, so please
> > disregard if it's a bear. Also, if what I'm saying is not what you
> > guys meant, please forget I ever wrote this.
>
> This issue is not worth making Noel jump through tiny burning hoops, as
> nothing is really broken. There is just this wee question about the very
> nature of an outline;
>
> Is an outline purely driven by indent levels (which may be the case,
> programatically) or should the relationship of some elements be defined
> by it's position in regard to (immediately following, not necessarily
> indented from) a parent ?

By our current definition, ANYTHING belonging to a parent is indented below
the parent. Again, external post processors depend on this.

>
> thorny ?
> interesting!
> djp
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
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Noel

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Steve Litt
On Monday 12 October 2009 08:32:50 Noel Henson wrote:

> On Monday 12 October 2009, David J Patrick wrote:
> > Steve Litt wrote:
> > > Wait a minute -- I think maybe we've been talking about two different
> > > things.
> >
> > umm.. I think we're talking about the same thing, but from different
> > perspectives.
>
> We're not, actually. However, I'm thinking about it.
>
> > > I thought you were talking about body text being flush with its parent
> > > headline. I doubt anyone will ever talk me out of my opinion that
> > > that's an abomination.
> >
> > I think the question is; should body text be supported at ANY indent
> > level ? While single-tab indent from parent is what sane, healthy people
> > would choose, some deviants seem to enjoy putting it directly below the
> > parent and it still works (god help them) and then the logical extension
> > is to ask; "can I put it HERE ? how about HERE ?" and some even feel
> > that you should be able to put the body text at any indent level at all,
> > and it should still work, y'know, except for the inevitable psychosis.
>
> It's vim. You can put body text anywhere you want. Even the first line of
> the file. You can even get rid of the colon-space marker at the beginning
> of the line. You have complete freedom. The ramifications of that freedom
> are currently:
>
> 1. Body text highlighting will not work for arbitrary body text
> indentation. But that's and easy fix. Just discard the 'contained' elements
> of the highlighting.
>
> 2. It breaks the Vim Outliner file format specification; which I need
> formalize.
>
> 3. None of the existing post processing scripts that have been written to
> date will properly process arbitrarily indented body text; at least none
> that I know of.
>
> > > Anyway, for those who want margin to
> > > margin body text, and I have no idea how difficult this would be --
> > > Noel would know, but I wonder if a special case could be made of body
> > > text whose colon started in line 1. Perhaps such body text would fold
> > > AS IF it's the child of the first headline above it. David -- I think
> > > if I read you right, this would satisfy you, and do so without a
> > > complete remake of our entire folding and indentation philosophy.
> >
> > Personally, I have no great need for big changes to body text handling,
> > and I wouldn't be caught out drinking with the non-indented-body-text
> > sorts of people, but there are times when I DO get a hankering for
> > full-width text.
> >
> > > Noel -- I have no idea how difficult that would be, so please
> > > disregard if it's a bear. Also, if what I'm saying is not what you
> > > guys meant, please forget I ever wrote this.
> >
> > This issue is not worth making Noel jump through tiny burning hoops, as
> > nothing is really broken. There is just this wee question about the very
> > nature of an outline;
> >
> > Is an outline purely driven by indent levels (which may be the case,
> > programatically) or should the relationship of some elements be defined
> > by it's position in regard to (immediately following, not necessarily
> > indented from) a parent ?
>
> By our current definition, ANYTHING belonging to a parent is indented below
> the parent. Again, external post processors depend on this.

Why don't we just leave it that way. Most folks in this thread said basically
"I wouldn't be caught dead not indenting my body text from its parent, but if
you really want to do otherwise, here's a way to do it."

STeeT


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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
On Monday 12 October 2009, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Monday 12 October 2009 08:32:50 Noel Henson wrote:
> > On Monday 12 October 2009, David J Patrick wrote:
> > > Steve Litt wrote:
> > > > Wait a minute -- I think maybe we've been talking about two
> > > > different things.
> > >
> > > umm.. I think we're talking about the same thing, but from different
> > > perspectives.
> >
> > We're not, actually. However, I'm thinking about it.
> >
> > > > I thought you were talking about body text being flush with its
> > > > parent headline. I doubt anyone will ever talk me out of my
> > > > opinion that that's an abomination.
> > >
> > > I think the question is; should body text be supported at ANY indent
> > > level ? While single-tab indent from parent is what sane, healthy
> > > people would choose, some deviants seem to enjoy putting it directly
> > > below the parent and it still works (god help them) and then the
> > > logical extension is to ask; "can I put it HERE ? how about HERE ?"
> > > and some even feel that you should be able to put the body text at
> > > any indent level at all, and it should still work, y'know, except
> > > for the inevitable psychosis.
> >
> > It's vim. You can put body text anywhere you want. Even the first line
> > of the file. You can even get rid of the colon-space marker at the
> > beginning of the line. You have complete freedom. The ramifications of
> > that freedom are currently:
> >
> > 1. Body text highlighting will not work for arbitrary body text
> > indentation. But that's and easy fix. Just discard the 'contained'
> > elements of the highlighting.
> >
> > 2. It breaks the Vim Outliner file format specification; which I need
> > formalize.
> >
> > 3. None of the existing post processing scripts that have been written
> > to date will properly process arbitrarily indented body text; at least
> > none that I know of.
> >
> > > > Anyway, for those who want margin to
> > > > margin body text, and I have no idea how difficult this would be
> > > > -- Noel would know, but I wonder if a special case could be made
> > > > of body text whose colon started in line 1. Perhaps such body text
> > > > would fold AS IF it's the child of the first headline above it.
> > > > David -- I think if I read you right, this would satisfy you, and
> > > > do so without a complete remake of our entire folding and
> > > > indentation philosophy.
> > >
> > > Personally, I have no great need for big changes to body text
> > > handling, and I wouldn't be caught out drinking with the
> > > non-indented-body-text sorts of people, but there are times when I
> > > DO get a hankering for full-width text.
> > >
> > > > Noel -- I have no idea how difficult that would be, so please
> > > > disregard if it's a bear. Also, if what I'm saying is not what you
> > > > guys meant, please forget I ever wrote this.
> > >
> > > This issue is not worth making Noel jump through tiny burning hoops,
> > > as nothing is really broken. There is just this wee question about
> > > the very nature of an outline;
> > >
> > > Is an outline purely driven by indent levels (which may be the case,
> > > programatically) or should the relationship of some elements be
> > > defined by it's position in regard to (immediately following, not
> > > necessarily indented from) a parent ?
> >
> > By our current definition, ANYTHING belonging to a parent is indented
> > below the parent. Again, external post processors depend on this.
>
> Why don't we just leave it that way. Most folks in this thread said
> basically "I wouldn't be caught dead not indenting my body text from its
> parent, but if you really want to do otherwise, here's a way to do it."
>
> STeeT
>

Should that read "there's a way to do it."?

Noel

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Herbert Sitz
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel Henson wrote
It's vim. You can put body text anywhere you want. Even the first line of
the file. You can even get rid of the colon-space marker at the beginning
of the line. You have complete freedom. . . .
[. . .]
3. None of the existing post processing scripts that have been written to
date will properly process arbitrarily indented body text; at least none
that I know of.
IMO, it's precisely because VO doesn't impose any constraints, rather all constraints are adopted by user convention, that post-processing scripts should _not_ rely on all lines of text being indented uniformly.  Even if a user tried to do it right, there could be mistakes.  For that reason I think there should be a post-processing script that normalizes all the body text, which would be run before any other post-processing script.  It would be trivial to write.
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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
On Monday 12 October 2009, hsitz wrote:

> Noel Henson wrote:
> > It's vim. You can put body text anywhere you want. Even the first line
> > of the file. You can even get rid of the colon-space marker at the
> > beginning of the line. You have complete freedom. . . .
> > [. . .]
> > 3. None of the existing post processing scripts that have been written
> > to date will properly process arbitrarily indented body text; at least
> > none that I know of.
>
> IMO, it's precisely because VO doesn't impose any constraints, rather
> all constraints are adopted by user convention, that post-processing
> scripts should _not_ rely on all lines of text being indented uniformly.
>  Even if a user tried to do it right, there could be mistakes.  For that
> reason I think there should be a post-processing script that normalizes
> all the body text, which would be run before any other post-processing
> script.  It would be trivial to write.

It may be trivial to write for just body text. But there are other objects
as well that need to be considered. What about the scripts that have
already been written that adhere to the indented conventions?

Noel

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Herbert Sitz
On Monday 12 October 2009 11:25:59 hsitz wrote:

> Noel Henson wrote:
> > It's vim. You can put body text anywhere you want. Even the first line of
> > the file. You can even get rid of the colon-space marker at the beginning
> > of the line. You have complete freedom. . . .
> > [. . .]
> > 3. None of the existing post processing scripts that have been written to
> > date will properly process arbitrarily indented body text; at least none
> > that I know of.
>
> IMO, it's precisely because VO doesn't impose any constraints, rather all
> constraints are adopted by user convention, that post-processing scripts
> should _not_ rely on all lines of text being indented uniformly.  Even if a
> user tried to do it right, there could be mistakes.  For that reason I
> think there should be a post-processing script that normalizes all the body
> text, which would be run before any other post-processing script.  It would
> be trivial to write.

It would be trivial to write except this case:

Steve Litt
        : Steve Litt's a guy from Florida who teaches troubleshooting. Etc.
        Steve's Dog
                : Steve's dog is black and white, weighing in at 20 pounds. Etc.
        : Besides his technical activities, Steve rides a bicycle. Etc.

The preceding indentation makes the intent and hierarchy clear, but any
postprocessing script I can think of would put Steve's Dog's body text at the
same level as Steve's bicycle body text, which is clearly not the intent.

Of course it could be argued that this exact problem occurs regularly in the
writing of books, requiring artificial book section headings such as "Steve's
Bicycle Riding. But there are other situations where the preceding outline
makes perfect sense.

SteveT

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Herbert Sitz
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel Henson wrote
It may be trivial to write for just body text. But there are other objects
as well that need to be considered. What about the scripts that have
already been written that adhere to the indented conventions?

Noel
I don't quite see how having different kinds of text blocks complicates things much.  You just use a regular expression that matches all text blocks and they all get processed the same.  Am I missing something?

Scripts that adhere to the desired convention would pass through the indenting script unchanged.  Like I said, this seems like desirable step of any post-processing process for any outlining tool where structure is not enforced by the outliner, merely adopted by user convention and liable to user error.

I'll take first crack at writing it if you want.  Seems like a five minute task for someone fluent in awk.  I'm not so it always takes a while to brush up on awk first.

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Monday 12 October 2009 11:36:13 Noel Henson wrote:

> On Monday 12 October 2009, hsitz wrote:
> > Noel Henson wrote:
> > > It's vim. You can put body text anywhere you want. Even the first line
> > > of the file. You can even get rid of the colon-space marker at the
> > > beginning of the line. You have complete freedom. . . .
> > > [. . .]
> > > 3. None of the existing post processing scripts that have been written
> > > to date will properly process arbitrarily indented body text; at least
> > > none that I know of.
> >
> > IMO, it's precisely because VO doesn't impose any constraints, rather
> > all constraints are adopted by user convention, that post-processing
> > scripts should _not_ rely on all lines of text being indented uniformly.
> >  Even if a user tried to do it right, there could be mistakes.  For that
> > reason I think there should be a post-processing script that normalizes
> > all the body text, which would be run before any other post-processing
> > script.  It would be trivial to write.
>
> It may be trivial to write for just body text. But there are other objects
> as well that need to be considered. What about the scripts that have
> already been written that adhere to the indented conventions?

I think that what Herb is saying is that for body text and body text alone, a
simple filter script could input arbitrary body text indentation and output
expected body text indentation to the existing post-processing script.

As you mention, when you consider other objects the plot thickens, because for
each object you have to decide whether it's considered a container or not, and
whether following body text should be considered subservient to that kind of
object, etc. In other words, as you mention, it can turn into a mess.

VO currently allows any type of indentation method imaginable. If one wanted,
the top level could be 8 tabs to the right, the second level could be 7 tabs
to the right, the third level would be 6 tabs to the right, etc, and VO would
merrily allow it. This whole thing boils down to a collapse question and a
text color question. What do you collapse under a given headline, and what
color is the stuff at various [levels | indents]. I think the question being
asked is should we change the collapse and coloration to accommodate various
types of indentation.

My personal answer to the preceding question would be "no", especially if it
would be difficult.

As far as the post-processors failing with non-standard indentation, this is a
documentation problem solved by the following paragraph:

======================================
Standard documentation involves body text and other objects being exactly one
indent right of the object they refer to, or the object containing them if
you'd prefer to think of it that way. If the only objects you're using are
headlines and body text and if you use non-standard indentation of body text,
your post-processors will continue to work if you filter your outline through
fix_bodytext_indentation.pl as follows:

cat myoutline.otl | ./fix_bodytext_indentation.pl | ./my_postprocessor.pl

However, if you're using other objects besides headlines and body text and
choose to indent your body text (or any other objects) in a non-standard way,
normal post processors will not work.
======================================

SteveT

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Herbert Sitz
On Monday 12 October 2009 12:27:05 hsitz wrote:

> I'll take first crack at writing it if you want.  Seems like a five minute
> task for someone fluent in awk.  I'm not so it always takes a while to
> brush up on awk first.

Yeah, I'd use awk a heck of a lot more if I didn't have to program awk with a
manual on my lap. I've had great success piping input through a successive
pipeline of simple awk scripts til the desired output pops out the output of
the final awk script. I came darned close to creating an awk version of a
program to convert EMDL (an outline based menu system definition) to .mnu files
(the native UMENU format, one .mnu file for each submenu). EMDL scripts are
probably the most difficult batch process I've ever programmed. Awk is great --
no Node.pm, nothing in memory, nothing even persistent beyond its local awk
script.

But I do awk maybe once a month, and every time I do it I have to relearn it.

And of course the other thing is unlike Perl, awk's not easily available on
Windows.

But awk sure does get the job done in a succinct manner.

SteveT

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Re: Always-Folded Method

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel Henson wrote:
> It may be trivial to write for just body text. But there are other objects
> as well that need to be considered.
In my (as confused as anyone else's) opinion, this mini-debate revolves
around body-text-objects. To take it beyond these objects is to
completely rethink "what is vimoutliner", and I don't think any of us
really want to go there. If, as a result of this conversation, placement
of body text is freed up, great, we can all continue to outline the way
we like, but I don't think the WHOLE idea of indentation driving heading
levels should be in doubt.

  What about the scripts that have
> already been written that adhere to the indented conventions?
(re-iteration) Heading level conventions should not ever be changed. Too
much depends on it; existing codebase, all the post-processing scripts,
current development impetus and basic usability.

If the outcome is an agreement indicates a desire for increased
flexibility of body text indentation, and that proves trivial to
implement, then existing output scripts will keep working (if the indent
levels follow todays conventions) and are probably trivial to update, too.

If, on the other hand, messing with this body-text looks like as much
fun as a space-suit full of hornets, then we should just formalize the
way it is now and carry on, and anyone who wants it otherwise will have
to code around that.

This is either an opportunity to expand the usability of VO, or it is a
distraction that threatens to derail our current creative and
colaborative thrust towards the next (and greatest ever) release of
vimoutliner.

you decide,
djp

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