Always-Folded Method

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
On Tuesday 13 October 2009, David J Patrick wrote:
> David J Patrick wrote:
> > yes, shortly after perfecting vimoutliner, which will never happen.
>
> I'd like to put this in context; I am an imperfectionist, and don't
> believe any software beyond "hello world" can ever be perfect.
> So the previous comment should not me construed as a direct swipe at VO,
> but more of recognizing and accepting imperfections all around us.
> [hovers gently over the mat]
> .. and I'm totally good with that.

ROTFLMAO.  Hahahahahaha thump!

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Tuesday 13 October 2009, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Tuesday 13 October 2009 16:08:10 Noel Henson wrote:
> > On Tuesday 13 October 2009, hsitz wrote:
> > > Steve Litt wrote:
> > > > As everyone suggests these new esoteric features, I sometimes
> > > > think they should log a few hours with VO 0.1.3 -- remember, the
> > > > one where folds occurred
> > > > 1 line BELOW the headline :-). No body text, no executable lines,
> > > > no checkboxes. Funny thing was, I quite happily used 0.1.3 to
> > > > design my book "Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> > > > Technologist." I got used to the
> > > > strange folding and the first time Matej called me on it my first
> > > > thought was
> > > > "oh big deal, you can get used to it."
> > >
> > > You bring a smile to my face.  Reminds me a little bit of some of
> > > the ed users when vi came out:  "We've been getting along fine
> > > seeing just a single line," they said, "Why in the world would we
> > > want clutter things up by showing all those lines at once?"
> > >
> > > Seriously, though, these "esoteric" features we're talking about are
> > > merely bringing VO a little bit closer to having all the outliner
> > > features that Grandview and other outliners had 20 years ago.  VO
> > > won't ever get there, just because of restrictions from using vim as
> > > the base of an outliner.  On the other hand, using vim as the base
> > > also adds some flexibility that you can't get in a dedicated
> > > outliner.  It's a decent tradeoff.
> > >
> > > -- Herb
> >
> > I have a feeling that sometime, perhaps soon, the excellent
> > programmers that are VO users out there may want to collaborate on a
> > really good, cross-platform outliner. Then, perhaps, we can surpass
> > the likes of MaxThink and Grandview.
> >
> > Noel
>
> I used Grandview for 3 or 4 years in the early 1990's. Frankly, I think
> we surpassed Grandview the day we got body text (January 2003). My
> memory of Grandview was wrist twisting keystrokes that were slow as
> molassas . I understand it had lots of features I never used, but as far
> as core outlining features, its only unmatched feature was cloning, and
> IIRC Grandview didn't have anything like our executable lines.
>
> My view is that all the features in the world mean little if the
> interface is so clunky you forget what you were thinking while you're
> playing twister getting the info into the outliner.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
>
>
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I believe I've used them all. Thought, More, Grandview, MaxThink (my
personal favorite because of the brainstorming mode), MS Word Outline Mode,
and WP Outline mode. More recently (over the last 5 years) I've tried many
Linux OSS projects; none of which are complete or really usable by me.

But we may get to the point where we need to write something better than
VO. I've been working on several architectures for one for some time.

Noel

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  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

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Re: Always-Folded Method

Lucas González
[snip]
> MaxThink (my personal favorite because of the brainstorming mode),
[snip]
> But we may get to the point where we need to write something better than
> VO. I've been working on several architectures for one for some time.
> Noel

I really like(d) brainstorming mode, too.

There was a think.mt file which had many of Edward de Bono's "thinking
tools": structured headings to more fully explore situations.
Implementable, I guess, with ,,<whatever><name of thinking tool>. ;-)
Nah, not really asking for anything.

And just keyboard based, no mouse.  (Never really got to use the
Windows version.)

Lucas
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Re: Always-Folded Method

David J Patrick-2
Lucas González wrote:
> I really like(d) brainstorming mode, too.
>
> There was a think.mt file which had many of Edward de Bono's "thinking
> tools": structured headings to more fully explore situations.
> Implementable, I guess, with ,,<whatever><name of thinking tool>. ;-)
> Nah, not really asking for anything.
But you DID bring up Edward de Bono ! What a fabulous source of thinking
goodness ! We could do a whole lot worse that occasionally asking
ourselves if VO can enable more de Bono modes of thinking. He is to the
creative thinking process, what David Allen is to task management.
djp
>
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Re: Always-Folded Method

Lucas González
>VO can enable more de Bono modes of thinking

I learned about Edward de Bono from Neil Larson's fabulous MaxThink
(and other software) _manuals_, which I think were incredibly good,
and of course the think.mt file included with MaxThink for DOS.
Later, I read EdB's book "Teach your child how to think", asked for
some CoRT lessons in Spanish, was invited to translate some myself,
and ended up translating 2000 pages of EdB's educational material.

So yes, I tend to think VO might make "de Bono thinking" a bit easier,
with ways to:
- Create or import a set of headings like PMI (Plus, Minus,
Interesting), or a personalised sequence of "thinking hats", etc.
- Expand abbreviations like hG (hat Green), hH (hat Blue), etc.  [This
is VIM, not VO.]
- Merge outlines with other thinkers.  Example: for any given shared
heading all our Plus items would be together.
- Do "random word", as in "<Problem> PO <random word>".  The random
word would be selected from a list of nouns.  Example: if I'm thinking
about "job creation" and the random word "fruit" comes up, "job PO
fruit" would incite me to think about jobs related to fruit either
realistically or conceptually. [This would be VIM, not VO, I think.]

Lucas

2009/10/14 David J Patrick <[hidden email]>:

> Lucas González wrote:
>>
>> I really like(d) brainstorming mode, too.
>>
>> There was a think.mt file which had many of Edward de Bono's "thinking
>> tools": structured headings to more fully explore situations.
>> Implementable, I guess, with ,,<whatever><name of thinking tool>. ;-)
>> Nah, not really asking for anything.
>
> But you DID bring up Edward de Bono ! What a fabulous source of thinking
> goodness ! We could do a whole lot worse that occasionally asking ourselves
> if VO can enable more de Bono modes of thinking. He is to the creative
> thinking process, what David Allen is to task management.
> djp
>>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
>
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Re: de Bono mode

David J Patrick-2
Lucas González wrote:
>> VO can enable more de Bono modes of thinking
>
> I learned about Edward de Bono from Neil Larson's fabulous MaxThink
> (and other software) _manuals_, which I think were incredibly good,
> and of course the think.mt file included with MaxThink for DOS.
> Later, I read EdB's book "Teach your child how to think", asked for
> some CoRT lessons in Spanish, was invited to translate some myself,
> and ended up translating 2000 pages of EdB's educational material.

Oh my goodness, you're an expert!
idea; de Bono mode
What if thinking tools were arranged using Mr Litts surprisingly easy
umenu ? Any time you feel you might be creatively cornered, pop-up the
CoRT menu and select a set of thinking re-adjusters, respond to the
prompts, get ideas, quit the menu and carry on. A script might even be
written to use the text file being modified at the time as source to
generate custom thinking triggers.

naaa.. that's crazy
;-)
djp
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Re: de Bono mode

Lucas González
>>> VO can enable more de Bono modes of thinking
>>
>> I learned about Edward de Bono from Neil Larson's fabulous MaxThink
>> (and other software) _manuals_, which I think were incredibly good,
>> and of course the think.mt file included with MaxThink for DOS.
>> Later, I read EdB's book "Teach your child how to think", asked for
>> some CoRT lessons in Spanish, was invited to translate some myself,
>> and ended up translating 2000 pages of EdB's educational material.
>
> Oh my goodness, you're an expert!
> idea; de Bono mode
> What if thinking tools were arranged using Mr Litts surprisingly easy umenu
> ? Any time you feel you might be creatively cornered, pop-up the CoRT menu
> and select a set of thinking re-adjusters, respond to the prompts, get
> ideas, quit the menu and carry on. A script might even be written to use the
> text file being modified at the time as source to generate custom thinking
> triggers.

Hmm.  More motivation to try the umenu thing!

> naaa.. that's crazy
> ;-)
> djp
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Re: uthink tools: Oblique Strategies

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
David J Patrick wrote:

If we're brainstorming on umenu driven thinking tools that can be used
within vimoutliner (well.. I was, anyway) then I would all Brian Enos
Oblique Strategies to that list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies
djp
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Re: uthink tools: Oblique Strategies

Noel Henson
On Wednesday 14 October 2009, David J Patrick wrote:

> David J Patrick wrote:
>
> If we're brainstorming on umenu driven thinking tools that can be used
> within vimoutliner (well.. I was, anyway) then I would all Brian Enos
> Oblique Strategies to that list
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies
> djp
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo

It's settled then. You guys can create some outlines about thinking and
problem solving to be included in 0.4.0. Just kidding. But let's all work
together to create some outlines of these methods. I used to have think.mt
on all my systems. I lost it when I have up windows back in '97. We can
include them in VO format and add links to the in the VO vim help files.

I was also thinking that providing a VO templates directory for commonly
used formats. I have around somewhere outline templates for: term papers,
progress reports, trip planning, book reports, meeting notes, function
prototypes for python and php and many more. I believe that these things
might be a wonderful addition to VO. They can  save people time, help them
learn, help them think and make them more productive.

Noel

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Re: uthink tools: Oblique Strategies

David J Patrick-2
Noel Henson wrote:
> It's settled then. You guys can create some outlines about thinking and
> problem solving to be included in 0.4.0. Just kidding.
Yeah, might be a bit of a distraction.
We could, however, give brief consideration of how this nifty stuff will
be implemented, like including a umenu plug-in for VO configuration that
can be re purposed for the brain jigglers.
  But let's all work
> together to create some outlines of these methods. I used to have think.mt
> on all my systems. I lost it when I have up windows back in '97. We can
> include them in VO format and add links to the in the VO vim help files.
All selectable from a handy set of (seemingly) built-in menus.
>
> I was also thinking that providing a VO templates directory for commonly
> used formats. I have around somewhere outline templates for: term papers,
> progress reports, trip planning, book reports, meeting notes, function
> prototypes for python and php and many more.
I'm about to gear up to using Usenet Cookbook formated recipes within an
outline, and a template there would be swell. I'm also working with
ledger-cli, thinking about the "scurvy" vim-centric screenplay `writing
software, and there are the VimPim sorts of templates. Yes, it would be
a good thing.
  I believe that these things
> might be a wonderful addition to VO. They can  save people time, help them
> learn, help them think and make them more productive.
Bust one or two conceptual blocks, and you've already gotten your moneys
  worth.
But do lets backburner all of this (with possible exception of the umenu
VO configuration) until some of the current core-function issues are
worked out, tested and out the door.
djp
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Re: uthink tools: Oblique Strategies

Samuel Wright
+1 for any ledger itegration
(back to lurking)
S

On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 8:01 PM, David J Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Noel Henson wrote:
>>
>> It's settled then. You guys can create some outlines about thinking and
>> problem solving to be included in 0.4.0. Just kidding.
>
> Yeah, might be a bit of a distraction.
> We could, however, give brief consideration of how this nifty stuff will be
> implemented, like including a umenu plug-in for VO configuration that can be
> re purposed for the brain jigglers.
>  But let's all work
>>
>> together to create some outlines of these methods. I used to have think.mt
>> on all my systems. I lost it when I have up windows back in '97. We can
>> include them in VO format and add links to the in the VO vim help files.
>
> All selectable from a handy set of (seemingly) built-in menus.
>>
>> I was also thinking that providing a VO templates directory for commonly
>> used formats. I have around somewhere outline templates for: term papers,
>> progress reports, trip planning, book reports, meeting notes, function
>> prototypes for python and php and many more.
>
> I'm about to gear up to using Usenet Cookbook formated recipes within an
> outline, and a template there would be swell. I'm also working with
> ledger-cli, thinking about the "scurvy" vim-centric screenplay `writing
> software, and there are the VimPim sorts of templates. Yes, it would be a
> good thing.
>  I believe that these things
>>
>> might be a wonderful addition to VO. They can  save people time, help them
>> learn, help them think and make them more productive.
>
> Bust one or two conceptual blocks, and you've already gotten your moneys
>  worth.
> But do lets backburner all of this (with possible exception of the umenu VO
> configuration) until some of the current core-function issues are worked
> out, tested and out the door.
> djp
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
>
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Re: Always-Folded Method

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Wednesday 14 October 2009 00:27:07 Noel Henson wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 October 2009, Steve Litt wrote:

> I believe I've used them all. Thought, More, Grandview, MaxThink (my
> personal favorite because of the brainstorming mode),

What's brainstorming mode?

StevET
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Re: uthink tools: Oblique Strategies

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel Henson wrote:
> I was also thinking that providing a VO templates directory for commonly
> used formats.
That proposed directory is a must.
Here's another idea for a template;
project definition ala David Allen (of GTD fame)

    1. Purpose and principles
    2. Envisioning the outcome
    3. Brainstorming
    4. Organizing
    5. Next actions

every project should start with these.

y'know, if we can agree on a metadata format (and even if we can't) I
can imagine benefits of doing something like

    MyProject
        : {project:My Project Full Name}
        : {start:date}
        : {end:date}
           Purpose and Principles
           Outcomes
           Brainstorming
           Organizing
           Next actions
                [_] task1
                        : {who:David}
                        : {due:date}

djp
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Re: uthink tools: Oblique Strategies

Steve Litt
On Thursday 15 October 2009 08:20:35 David J Patrick wrote:

> Noel Henson wrote:
> > I was also thinking that providing a VO templates directory for commonly
> > used formats.
>
> That proposed directory is a must.
> Here's another idea for a template;
> project definition ala David Allen (of GTD fame)
>
>     1. Purpose and principles
>     2. Envisioning the outcome
>     3. Brainstorming
>     4. Organizing
>     5. Next actions
>
> every project should start with these.
>
> y'know, if we can agree on a metadata format (and even if we can't) I
> can imagine benefits of doing something like
>
>     MyProject
>
> : {project:My Project Full Name}
> : {start:date}
> : {end:date}
>
>   Purpose and Principles
>   Outcomes
>   Brainstorming
>   Organizing
>   Next actions
> [_] task1
>
> : {who:David}
> : {due:date}

Don't use colons. They'll wrap when you least want them to wrap -- colon means
"body text". Use underscore or dash or & or whatever, but don't use colon
unless for some reason you want these things to be body text.

SteveT

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Re: uthink tools: Oblique Strategies

David J Patrick-2
Steve Litt wrote:

>>   Purpose and Principles
>>   Outcomes
>>   Brainstorming
>>   Organizing
>>   Next actions
>> [_] task1
>>
>> : {who:David}
>> : {due:date}
>
> Don't use colons. They'll wrap when you least want them to wrap -- colon means
> "body text". Use underscore or dash or & or whatever, but don't use colon
> unless for some reason you want these things to be body text.
you're totally, right, I meant to use ;
thanks Steve,
djp
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Re: uthink tools: Oblique Strategies

Herbert Sitz
David J Patrick-2 wrote
>>   Next actions
>> [_] task1
>> : {who:David}
>> : {due:date}
>
you're totally, right, I meant to use ;
thanks Steve,
djp
That ;-char that's being used for metadata sections should probably be changed to something that's not used for other text blocks at all.  I coded it up using ;-char just to test things out and never switched things to give metadata text it's own unique prefix character.   In code I wrote metadata is identified as a ';'-prefixed text block immediately following a heading.  That's probably not an ideal method of identification.  -- Herb
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