Any poets here?

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Any poets here?

Eric Weir
Wondering if there are any poets here who use vim in writing poetry, either in the messy creative phase or the later refining, polishing, and editing phase. If so, I’d be interested in knowing how you use vim, how you find vim helpful, and whether there are any plugins that you have found especially helpful.

And if any non-poets here know of poets who use vim who are not here, I’d appreciate a reference.

Thanks,
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
[hidden email]

"Our world is a human world."

- Hilary Putnam





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Re: Any poets here?

kouzennoki
Personally I think Vim is the antithesis of something poetic, because of the
vast difficulty in doing simple things :p.

The topics that are regular on this list, and elsewhere... it is like it is an
attempt at doing everything the difficult way ;-).

I would never write anything non-software or non-configuration file or
non-technical.

Because I would not want to be bugged by endless keypress-mistakes and the only
reason I use Vim really is because of its speed.

Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I accidentily delete a piece
of text and I cannot revert the change for some reason. I had this keyboard or
computer where I was that didn't do CTRL-R.

Yes, only Vim can perform such a feat.

Press two wrong buttons and lose your entire file.

It is for the risky and daunting.

Or the not so easily amused :p.

Anyway, good luck with your search. I'll be using vim just for Linux/Unix
editing though.

Regards,

Xen.



On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Eric Weir wrote:

> Wondering if there are any poets here who use vim in writing poetry, either
> in the messy creative phase or the later refining, polishing, and editing
> phase. If so, I’d be interested in knowing how you use vim, how you find vim
> helpful, and whether there are any plugins that you have found especially
> helpful.
>
> And if any non-poets here know of poets who use vim who are not here, I’d
> appreciate a reference.
>
> Thanks,
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eric Weir
> Decatur, GA  USA
> [hidden email]
>
> "Our world is a human world."
>
> - Hilary Putnam
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Any poets here?

Sven Guckes-3
* <[hidden email]> [2015-01-30 21:26]:
> Personally I think Vim is the antithesis of something poetic,
> because of the vast difficulty in doing simple things :p.
> The topics that are regular on this list, and elsewhere... it is
> like it is an attempt at doing everything the difficult way ;-).

i am sure you have many examples to show..
can you show, say, three examples?

> I would never write anything non-software
> or non-configuration file or non-technical.

so you basically dont know anything about Eric's proposed question?

> Because I would not want to be bugged by endless keypress-mistakes
> and the only reason I use Vim really is because of its speed.

you just contradicted yourself.

> Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I
> accidentily delete a piece of text and I cannot
> revert the change for some reason.

"undo" is your friend.

> I had this keyboard or computer where
> I was that didn't do CTRL-R.

hardly a vim problem, but poor choice of keyboard.

> Yes, only Vim can perform such a feat.
> Press two wrong buttons and lose your entire file.
> It is for the risky and daunting.

let me repeat: "undo" is your friend.
it is even persistent between sessions.
how many more editors do you know which
can do that?  please name at least one.

> Anyway, good luck with your search.
> I'll be using vim just for
> Linux/Unix editing though.

Vim exists for many more systems - and for
whatever kind of text you want to write.

alas, you completely failed to give any
evidence to your statements.  and no
info at all about the question itself. :-/

Sven

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Re: Any poets here?

Boyko Bantchev
In reply to this post by kouzennoki
On 30 January 2015 at 22:11,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Personally I think Vim is the antithesis of something poetic, because of the
> vast difficulty in doing simple things :p.

I am curious to actually see at least one example of a simple thing
necessarily done in a "vastly difficult" way in Vim.

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Re: Any poets here?

Tim Chase
On 2015-01-30 22:41, Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> On 30 January 2015 at 22:11,  <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Personally I think Vim is the antithesis of something poetic,
> > because of the vast difficulty in doing simple things :p.
>
> I am curious to actually see at least one example of a simple thing
> necessarily done in a "vastly difficult" way in Vim.

Well, any domain-specific task would do better in a custom editor.
I've authored SVG files in vim and in Inkscape, and Inkscape wins
just about every time (I do back and clean up the resulting SVG with
vim on occasion).

But for merely editing text, whether code, prose, or poetry, I'd take
vim any day.

-tim




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Re: Any poets here?

Eric Weir

> On Jan 30, 2015, at 3:49 PM, Tim Chase <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But for merely editing text, whether code, prose, or poetry, I'd take
> vim any day.

I’ve never written an inch of code, but vim is by far my preferred editor. When I have to use TextEdit, I’m always typing in vim commands. Oh if they only had the same effect. QuickCursor used let me use vim as my preferred editor in other apps, e.g., in Apple Mail. Alas, the steps Apple took to improve security by isolating apps from one other rendered QuickCursor unusable. Oh how I wish that problem could be overcome.  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
[hidden email]

"Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred."

- Amos Oz

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Re: Any poets here?

kouzennoki
In reply to this post by Sven Guckes-3
It is funny to see that the person responding to my 'empty'
recommendations also does not provide anything meaningful, in that sense,
but merely questions my experiences and opinions ;-).

Which kinda proves that there is not much to go for this particular
solution, or people would be giving positives instead of negatives, in
reply to something that may seem like a negative.

Which was just an expression of a bit of frustration, be it something that
obviously is just a personal experience, but a truth nonetheless, or
nevertheless.

And I really believe I am not the only one with such frustratiosn ;-).

The amount of time I spent editing a PHP colour file, or something that
had to work with it!!! :@.

Even discussed with its maintainer, but that person also didn't really
know how the system worked, he had just been asked to maintain it after
making some changes, or whatever.

Also, I do not think that personal experiences require "evidence" unless I
would want to pose it as a universal truth or anything, which I don't have
any desire to do.

But to the questions. It is pretty obvious that in any regular editor,
search and replace (of text, or even patterns, sometimes) is a very simple
task to perform. You go to a visible menu, select a visible option, fill
in a few visible field with visible options.... and in Vim you have to
remember to do :s/text/text/ig or something like that. Or is it
%s/text/text/ig ?. I don't remember. Now. I like Vim's visual mode but I
don't know much else that is that easy. It is a bit like Linux's "info"
system, but Vim is easier than that :p.

The whole idea of making a lot of key press mistakes is because the
environment allows you to really quickly do various tasks. So it is not a
contradiction: the mistakes result from being a fast typer and Vim does
not put any hinderness or obstruction in the way of working really fast.
So obviously in that context if you press a lot of mode switches you
regularly enter a text input when you are accidentily in a command mode.
Which then does things you do not want and you don't even know what
commands you just executed, just that you need (sometimes) a way to undo
it again. Undo is your friend, but sometimes it is the only thing that
keeps you floating ;-). There is a difference ;-).

I still don't know or remember how to do window editing. I still don't
know how to copy text from one file to another except by doing :e or :f
filename which always replaces the current file, I believe. The whole
prospect of having to copy text from one file to another with Vim makes me
feel miserable and wish I had a regular editor, and normally I (still!!!)
use various different (Putty, e.g.) terminals to copy the text using the
regular desktop I am working in.

Which then requires ways of ignoring the indents, which after a long while
(!!) I discovered was done with .. oh I think it is :set paste. That
improved my Vim experience by 500%, learning that :p.

I had been bugged with auto-indents (or more, same-line or same-indent on
next-line or new-line) that would spread the indents out to the right,
which caused me to do a visual select followed by an auto-indent with =.

Which was obviously a bit of pain.

And then when finally I was working in like jEdit again, I was heaving so
many sighs of relief ;-).

But I regularly do PHP editing in Vim. I have never saw fit to integrate
any thing outside into it (compilers, other..) so my workflow is pretty
bad, but it is enough when you can just reload a webpage from your home
computer ;-). It definitely beats having to reupload changed files every
time.

But I seriously sometimes would download a file, using whatever difficult
means because a PHP file is not easily downloaded when it is executed,
then change it (copy paste stuff) locally, and then find a way to scp it
back. All very tedious and arduous, but it was a better spending of time
for me than learning the Vim way at those points or moments.

And that is just the way it has been for me.

Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is not exactly my
favourite pastime, eventually especially when you forget how to do a
certain thing again because it never quite makes it to muscle memory.

So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
possible :p.

Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly relaxing
compared to having to do such a thing in Vi. Arrow keys always do what
they should, I don't have to remember HJKL keys if the arrow keys don't
work for some reason as well as being bugged by which of the BWE keys I
need this time ( I make so many 'mistakes' in that). The things that work
fast in Vim are the easy things:

dd
p

But in a different editor you would shift-down-arrow, ctrl-x, down-arrow,
ctrl-v. More arduous, but easy.

And something you do automatically. I would say the power of Vim's command
is also its downfall or its nemesis. Because of being able to do
impressive things with short commands you are enticed or induced to do
these things very fast. This means you get into a higher mode of
concentration and ..speed. Even exiting the thing is the quickest thing
ever with a quick :wq

Regular editors are not so easily closed and reopened, especially on a
desktop. It makes no sense to do that on a desktop.

So on a desktop you often have to save the file, alt-tab to the right
window where your shell is (commandline) which is sometimes hard to find,
etcetera. Unless and until you the start integrating everything into the
editor or IDE itself, which then becomes a bliss, but it still lacks the
power of a real editor like Vi. Because then you are bound and chained to
that particular IDE. And it is no longer a component you can build into a
wider solution where you are free to choose the components you want.

It is just that I just haven't had the time or need or opportunity to
invest a lot of time into making Vim my default workflow component across
a network link. I would never use it on a local computer because usually I
would prefer desktop editors for that. I just like the idea of working on
e.g. a development server with vi for editing.

I just lack and lacked a good copy-paste mechanism. I believe I will never
learn the Vim way and I don't need to, a desktop environment should or
would be sufficient I believe. But in that case I am seriously looking
into thinking about having a way to get this information sent over the
link into my own clipboard, for instance.

Currently I am writing this in KDE (Kubuntu 15.04, their new alpha version
2) and it has a reasonably good clipboard tool. Perhaps we could in the
end devise a way for such a program like Vim (and I would not mind
programming on it) in combination with a shell (likewise) to get a
mechanism where these copy-pastes are actually processed from the editor
into the shell, from the shell to the terminal, and from the terminal to
the receiving client. I mean, why not.

I am doing a lot of coding on telnet and ANSI. Perchance I will eventually
learn of a way, when I have enough knowhow.

Doesn't seem like a bad thing to do in any case. ANSI commands are usually
very short, but it is not like there is a real length limit, I believe.
There is a facility for sending quoted strings, and you could easily
devise a length-limited mechanism for sending a longer "copy" in parts.
There are a lot of possible commands (ANSI uses characters in the range of
@ to ^, which ends with (int)127, so to speak. For its commands. Some
commmands are even modified by a (final) number parameter like 6i. A
recurring copy-past send could be or would have to be nothing more than
CSI followed by, so usually ESC[1;"the text"z or something, or perhaps you
cannot put a command after a quote; ESC[1;"the text";z you would get. The
parameter (number) would simply indicate whether it is the start, mid, or
ending of a message. ANSI is encoded within a character-encoded stream
actually. So you have plain ASCII ANSI, but also UTF-8 ANSI, and so on.
The ANSI interpreter hence needs to sit on top of the character decoding
layer (or processing). Who knows what is possible.

You might get issues with newlines breaking up an ANSI control sequence
because normally I believe they don't ever have any and many terminals may
not like that. Nevertheless. It would be funky and funny and fun.


Ideally I would really want to have a pipe like that. You could even pipe
the text into a unix pipe and the terminal itself will read it when
configured, or whatever. I don't know how (unix) interprocess
communication works like that, but I think pipes are an excellent idea for
that.

Anyway.

Just my thoughts and feelings.

Regards,.




On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Sven Guckes wrote:

> * <[hidden email]> [2015-01-30 21:26]:
>> Personally I think Vim is the antithesis of something poetic,
>> because of the vast difficulty in doing simple things :p.
>> The topics that are regular on this list, and elsewhere... it is
>> like it is an attempt at doing everything the difficult way ;-).
>
> i am sure you have many examples to show..
> can you show, say, three examples?
>
>> I would never write anything non-software
>> or non-configuration file or non-technical.
>
> so you basically dont know anything about Eric's proposed question?
>
>> Because I would not want to be bugged by endless keypress-mistakes
>> and the only reason I use Vim really is because of its speed.
>
> you just contradicted yourself.
>
>> Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I
>> accidentily delete a piece of text and I cannot
>> revert the change for some reason.
>
> "undo" is your friend.
>
>> I had this keyboard or computer where
>> I was that didn't do CTRL-R.
>
> hardly a vim problem, but poor choice of keyboard.
>
>> Yes, only Vim can perform such a feat.
>> Press two wrong buttons and lose your entire file.
>> It is for the risky and daunting.
>
> let me repeat: "undo" is your friend.
> it is even persistent between sessions.
> how many more editors do you know which
> can do that?  please name at least one.
>
>> Anyway, good luck with your search.
>> I'll be using vim just for
>> Linux/Unix editing though.
>
> Vim exists for many more systems - and for
> whatever kind of text you want to write.
>
> alas, you completely failed to give any
> evidence to your statements.  and no
> info at all about the question itself. :-/
>
> Sven
>
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Re: Any poets here?

Tim Chase
In reply to this post by Eric Weir
On 2015-01-30 14:57, Eric Weir wrote:
> Wondering if there are any poets here who use vim in writing
> poetry, either in the messy creative phase or the later refining,
> polishing, and editing phase. If so, I’d be interested in knowing
> how you use vim, how you find vim helpful, and whether there are
> any plugins that you have found especially helpful.
>
> And if any non-poets here know of poets who use vim who are not
> here, I’d appreciate a reference.

While I mostly code using vim (which is slick),
I find that for prose it can do the trick.
And poems that rhyme?
You'll find that this time,
I used it to author a limerick.

As for plugins, I have to disclose,
I don't use them for poems or prose.
But for my writing projects
Parens and text-objects
Are the first things to learn, I propose.

:-)

-tim




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Re: Any poets here?

kouzennoki
In reply to this post by Eric Weir
> When I have to use TextEdit, I’m always typing in vim commands.

That is something that never happened to me ;-). Perhaps because my first
and initial editor was simply the editor program in MS-DOS, the thing that
QuickBasic also used.

Then when I went on to Turbo Pascal and Borland Pascal, that IDE was
basically the same with a different behaviour on deletes (of lines, I
believe) which I have never seen repeated, but which was easy to get used
to.

In the era of Windows 95 and so on, the same was repeated but vastly
standardized in the Windows system, using the Delphi IDE. There was
nothing weird about Delphi, the only remarkable thing or worth remembering
was a CTRL-Q or CTRL-K <mark> feature to mark places in the text to jump
back to, which I used a lot.

Only my jEdit often does things differently, but the 'windows' standard
is seen everywhere actually, in linux at least, but also in MacOS except
that page-down and so on works vastly differently or deviatingly.

The whole idea of using shift-modified and ctrl-modified arrow movements
to select text and move around is so intuitive to my mind, that I've never
had any issues with it whatsoever, and I don't think anyone else had
either, it is one of those things that are just perfect and don't need
improvement in any way, shape or form.

If I use arrow keys in vi insert mode, I immediately run into troubles.
Oops, that is vi behaviour, vim was not installed here by default
(dafuq?).

But it is a thing you sometimes encounter on remote systems.

LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.

Let's check Debian...

NEITHER :P.

:)

Kudos.


On Fri, 30 Jan 2015, Eric Weir wrote:

>> On Jan 30, 2015, at 3:49 PM, Tim Chase <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> But for merely editing text, whether code, prose, or poetry, I'd take
>> vim any day.
>
> I’ve never written an inch of code, but vim is by far my preferred
> editor. When I have to use TextEdit, I’m always typing in vim commands.
> Oh if they only had the same effect. QuickCursor used let me use vim as
> my preferred editor in other apps, e.g., in Apple Mail. Alas, the steps
> Apple took to improve security by isolating apps from one other rendered
> QuickCursor unusable. Oh how I wish that problem could be overcome.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eric Weir
> Decatur, GA  USA
> [hidden email]
>
> "Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred."
>
> - Amos Oz
>
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Re: Any poets here?

Eric Weir
In reply to this post by Eric Weir
> On Jan 30, 2015, at 4:56 PM, Eric Weir <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> QuickCursor used let me use vim as my preferred editor in other apps, e.g., in Apple Mail. Alas, the steps Apple took to improve security by isolating apps from one other rendered QuickCursor unusable. Oh how I wish that problem could be overcome.  

It seems my wish has been granted. Whoopee! (Hope it works. Comments suggest it does.) Not free, though. <http://blog.hogbaysoftware.com/post/2623776146/quickcursor-now-available-in-mac-app-store>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
[hidden email]

"What does it mean...that the world is so beautiful?"

- Mary Oliver








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Re: Any poets here?

Tim Chase
In reply to this post by kouzennoki
On 2015-01-30 21:11, [hidden email] wrote:
> Personally I think Vim is the antithesis of something poetic,
> because of the vast difficulty in doing simple things :p.

Only to the untrained user.

> Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I accidentily
> delete a piece of text and I cannot revert the change for some
> reason. I had this keyboard or computer where I was that didn't do
> CTRL-R.

Fortunately, Vim allows you work around that.  I've had a keyboard go
bad mid-editing, and there are numerous work-arounds:

- use ":redo" instead of ^R

- map it to another key: ":nnoremap Q <c-r>".

- compose the desired command elsewhere and then paste it into
  your terminal as a command for vim to interpret.

> Yes, only Vim can perform such a feat.

Frankly, other than perhaps emacs, I can't think of any other editor
that *gives you the power* to remap every bit of functionality across
the board just to work around a broken keyboard.  My limited emacs
experience is what prevents me from confirming this, but my
understanding is that it could be done with little trouble as well.

> Press two wrong buttons and lose your entire file.

The closest I could come up with to recreate your scenario is
"ZQ" (quit without saving, possibly discarding edits you want) or
"ZZ" (quit with saving, possibly overwriting a good file with bad
changes).

Same would go for just about any other editor.  In Windows, Alt+F4
followed by the wrong answer would lose data in most editors.  In
nano, ^X followed by the wrong answer would lose data.  In
ed(1), "wq" or "Q" could lose data.  Again, I can't speak to emacs.

You do stupid stuff, you lose data.  The remedies are:

1) learn to use the editor so you don't make mistakes like that.
Fortunately, the possibility that you *accidentally* type "ZQ" or
"ZZ" in normal mode when you don't intend to is pretty unlikely.

2) save often

3) don't use a broken keyboard that prevents you from recovering from
your mistakes (or map around the broken key(s))

4) keep your documents in revision control (git, mercurial, bazaar,
subversion, rcs, cvs, whatever) so that you can always go back in
time.  Combined with #2, it's almost impossible to lose data.


Over the past 10+ years of using vim, the *only* time that I've ever
lost data (other than power outages, where sometimes-but-not-always I
can use the swap-file to recover unlike many other editors) was a
particular scenario:

  :new
  :set buftype=nofile
  {make edits}
  :saveas some_filename.txt
  {get a "E676: No matching autocommands for acwrite buffer"}
  {get confused and try to re-open the file I just wrote}
  :e!
  {all changes were lost}

Other than that, either I've intentionally added a "!" to my quitting
efforts, I've always had undo/redo available, or I've intentionally
cut my support (disabling the swapfile or undo).

-tim




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Re: vim too complicated? or too powerful?

Sven Guckes-3
In reply to this post by kouzennoki
* <[hidden email]> [2015-01-31 00:24]:
> It is funny to see that the person responding to my 'empty'
> recommendations also does not provide anything meaningful, in that
> sense, but merely questions my experiences and opinions ;-).

well.. that's what happens when you follow someone who does it that way.

yes, you succeeded in side-tracking me.  congratulations!
but at least you should have updated the subject accordingly.

so i did now.

> Also, I do not think that personal experiences require
> "evidence" unless I would want to pose it as a universal
> truth or anything, which I don't have any desire to do.

well.. i'm glad to help with a particular problem.
but i think the problem is yourself.  blaming effects to
happen when you mistype is hardly a problem of the program.

it is unfortunate that many programs do not have an undo.
but vim does have a thousand undos by default. it also
offfers a redo command.  you can go several ways with this
in an undo tree - and it is persistent to editing sessions.

the only thing you are missing here is how to use it.
there is documentation galore.  you just need to learn it.

> But to the questions. It is pretty obvious that in any regular
> editor, search and replace (of text, or even patterns,
> sometimes) is a very simple task to perform. You go to a
> visible menu, select a visible option, fill in a few visible
> field with visible options.... and in Vim you have to remember
> to do :s/text/text/ig or something like that. Or is it
> %s/text/text/ig ?. I don't remember. Now. I like Vim's visual
> mode but I don't know much else that is that easy. It is a bit
> like Linux's "info" system, but Vim is easier than that :p.

by "regular" you mean "the way i am used to", right?
so you want an interface to pop up with different text
areas for the search string and the replacement string?
and a button for "ignore case" and "ask me every time"?

how to navigate around this in an environment with mice?
TAB and shift-TAB perhaps? all these things within GUIs?

how about an interface where all these things
can be down with exactly *one* keystroke?
answer: the command line.  just put the search
and replacement string right behind each other.
only requires separation with slashes.  done.

just put the lines to operate on before it.
"1,23" or "23,42" or "42,$" ('$' = last line).
the '%' is the abbreviation for "all lines".
otherwise it simply operates on the current line.
these are *concepts* - and you will find that
other programs are also using it.  coincidence?

anyway - you need to remember this.
as with *everything* you do, right?

if you however do not WANT to remember this and
you think popup dialogs are the way to go, well,
it is right there with every other program, right?

you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
reason why it hasnt been added.  one of these is
the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
one is that it should work on terminals as well.

> The whole idea of making a lot of key press mistakes is because
> the environment allows you to really quickly do various tasks.
> So it is not a contradiction: the mistakes result from being a
> fast typer and Vim does not put any hinderness or obstruction in
> the way of working really fast.  So obviously in that context if
> you press a lot of mode switches you regularly enter a text
> input when you are accidentily in a command mode.

bzzt!
you keep talking about mistakes.
but who makes them?  you do!

vim indeed has not been designed for you
to mistype and still get the same results.
if you are asking for that then you may as
well go trolling with this everywhere else.

vim has just two modes really:
in one it works - and in the
other you are simply mistyping.

> Which then does things you do not want and you don't even know
> what commands you just executed, just that you need (sometimes)
> a way to undo it again. Undo is your friend, but sometimes it is
> the only thing that keeps you floating ;-).  There is a
> difference ;-).

> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.

it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
that's *your* task.  besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!

> I still don't know how to copy text from one file
> to another except by doing :e or :f filename which
> always replaces the current file, I believe.

this is not a matter of belief.
you can switch buffers with *surprise* "buffer" command - ":b"

> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
> and wish I had a regular editor.

a *regular* editor?  well, the text editor
compendium lists 200+ of them.  use one!

> and normally I (still!!!) use various different
> (Putty, e.g.) terminals to copy the text
> using the regular desktop I am working in.

so you are using an external program to copy+paste?  why?
because you do not know how to use all those
nifty commands for copy+paste built in already?
come on.. you keep showing your ignorance here.

you need to unplug that mouse for a week or so.
there are plenty of commands you copy+paste text.

> And then when finally I was working in like jEdit
> again, I was heaving so many sighs of relief ;-).

well.. use jEdit then?!

> But I regularly do PHP editing in Vim. I have never saw fit to integrate any
> thing outside into it (compilers, other..) so my workflow is pretty bad, but
> it is enough when you can just reload a webpage from your home computer ;-).
> It definitely beats having to reupload changed files every time.

read up on ":help quickfix"..

> But I seriously sometimes would download a file, using whatever difficult
> means because a PHP file is not easily downloaded when it is executed, then
> change it (copy paste stuff) locally, and then find a way to scp it back.
> All very tedious and arduous, but it was a better spending of
> time for me than learning the Vim way at those points or moments.

so the other programs you use make this easier? how so?

> And that is just the way it has been for me.

until you find out and use something like sshfs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSHFS
or maybe www.emacswiki.org/TrampMode

> Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is
> not exactly my favourite pastime, eventually especially
> when you forget how to do a certain thing again because
> it never quite makes it to muscle memory.

yeah.. reading up on how to do things more
efficiently doesnt seem to be your thing.
but that makes *everything* in your hands look bad.
until one realizes that *you* are the problem here.

> Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly
> relaxing compared to having to do such a thing in Vi.
> Arrow keys always do what they should, I don't have to
> remember HJKL keys if the arrow keys don't work for some
> reason as well as being bugged by which of the BWE keys I
> need this time (I make so many 'mistakes' in that).

yes, i do agree here: the strength of this editor
is that it displays some commands always on screen.
that why i gave pico to beginners first. easy start!
and i also supported it to be rewritten as nano
which separated it from the pine mailer/newsreader,
gave it a free license and a lot more commands, too.

however..  even nano doesnt have a
concept of number prefix to repeat things.
it does not have the dot operator
to repeat the last change command.
it does not have filtering and..
a lot more.  that's why i use vim.

to give an example, i wrote it down:
http://www.guckes.net/pico/vs.vi.html

vim has way too many commands to display -
and its strength is in the *concept* of
combining commands (such as 23yy and 42dd)
which simply cannot be easily shown on screen.

think of the "vi mug" - even this cannot show everything.
a "vim mug" to show all commands would probably
be the size of a bath tub or even a pool.  (i know..
i have written a few command summaries myself.)

> The things that work fast in Vim are the easy things: dd p
> But in a different editor you would shift-down-arrow,
> ctrl-x, down-arrow, ctrl-v. More arduous, but easy.

..and deleting 42 lines is simply "42dd".
how do you do this is another editor
without counting in your head or
looking at the lines numbers?

my point: the prefix number for commands is a very
poweful concept.  alas, nano/pico dont have that.

> And something you do automatically.

... once you have learned it.

this is not a feature of the program -
this is a feature of your *brain*.

> I would say the power of Vim's command is also its
> downfall or its nemesis. Because of being able to
> do impressive things with short commands you are
> enticed or induced to do these things very fast.
> This means you get into a higher mode of
> concentration and ..speed. Even exiting the thing
> is the quickest thing ever with a quick :wq

.. or just ZZ.

would you rather opt for more?  or something else?
you can certainly have that if you want. just map it!

> Regular editors are not so easily closed
> and reopened, especially on a desktop.
> It makes no sense to do that on a desktop.

huh? your statement doesnt make sense.

> So on a desktop you often have to save the file,
> alt-tab to the right window where your shell is
> (commandline) which is sometimes hard to find, etcetera.

a shell/terminal is hard to find
when you are using a given environment
where the authors agreed to hide it.

a terminal can be opened on quite a few systems with
a shortcut (ctrl-alt-t is a frequent example) - or
with whatever shortcut *you* want.  just make it so!

i mean, if you really this often then you
simply make it accessible easily, dont you?

> Unless and until you the start integrating everything into
> the editor or IDE itself, which then becomes a bliss, but
> it still lacks the power of a real editor like Vi. Because
> then you are bound and chained to that particular IDE.

you are not chained to do anything.
you are just limitd to your abilities.

> And it is no longer a component you can build into a wider
> solution where you are free to choose the components you want.

yes, you are not free - when you dont know what you can do.

> It is just that I just haven't had the time or need or
> opportunity to invest a lot of time into making Vim my
> default workflow component across a network link. I would
> never use it on a local computer because usually I would
> prefer desktop editors for that. I just like the idea of
> working on e.g. a development server with vi for editing.

wrong again.  you didnt take the time.  again - your fault.
and you can choose whatever as your environment - and
again this is NOT a built-in problem of vim.  it's you.

> I just lack and lacked a good copy-paste mechanism.

    "ayy    use register 'a' to copy the current line
    :b 23   switch to buffer 23
    "ap     use register 'a' to paste its contents
    ^W ^W   switch to the window below the current one
    42"ap   paste 42 times the contents of register 'a'

there is a register (read: clipboard) for every letter.
so 26 clipboards altogether.  been there for decades now.
and they are retained in the viminfo file - if you wish.
why would you use the system default clipboard instead?

which of your other programs have more than two clipboards?
built-in? in the smallest version?  for years?  name one!

> I believe I will never learn the Vim way and I don't need to,
> a desktop environment should or would be sufficient I believe.

wait.. you already have something better than vim which
suits you?  then why the hell complain about vim at all?
just use it - and tell us about it.  what is better?
and please explain *why*.  give some examples!

> But in that case I am seriously looking into thinking
> about having a way to get this information sent over
> the link into my own clipboard, for instance.

"if your only tool is a hammer - every problem looks like a nail."

> Currently I am writing this in KDE (Kubuntu 15.04, their new
> alpha version 2) and it has a reasonably good clipboard tool.
> Perhaps we could in the end devise a way for such a program
> like Vim (and I would not mind programming on it) in
> combination with a shell (likewise) to get a mechanism where
> these copy-pastes are actually processed from the editor into
> the shell, from the shell to the terminal, and from the
> terminal to the receiving client. I mean, why not.

you are not the first person to think up something like this.
and there are a LOT of tools out there which already do this.
have you never tried looking this up?

> I am doing a lot of coding on telnet and ANSI. Perchance
> I will eventually learn of a way, when I have enough knowhow.

"coding *on* telnet" - a telnet program?
or are you using telnet to log in?
(clear text? no encryption? uh-oh.)

> Ideally I would really want to have a pipe like that. You
> could even pipe the text into a unix pipe and the terminal
> itself will read it when configured, or whatever. I don't
> know how (unix) interprocess communication works like
> that, but I think pipes are an excellent idea for that.

you can use the gui clipboard from within vim.
you simply use its name ("*) before copy/paste.
see ":help quotestar".  you may easily copy the
current text object (word, sentence, paragraph)
to put it right there with one function key.

whatever shortcut you want - it is you who decides.
and it *must* be you to change vim's configuration.
it all depends on your own editing habits.
no interface can assign all possibel nice thing
to any key - unless you are get yourself one
of those keyboards with *hundreds* on keys.

my advice:
monitor yourself.  what commands do you need?
how do you do it so far?  write it down.
ask for advice to amke it more efficient.

take the TIME to look at some howtos, even videos.
ask a friend, ask the local community,
ask the virtual community online.

follow the edvice you are given.
train yourself some commands.

for repetetive tasks - try to find an abbreviating command.
it may need to create a function and bind it to a key (sequence).
see also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9m3g5J-XA

take a look at some of the plugins.

try to do the same task in another program.

and if no program gives you everything - use several.

if you must have everything in one program
and you cannot find one - write your own!
or try to do the same with the help of others.
programming is not a crime.  (well, not yet.)

Sven

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Re: Any poets here?

Sven Guckes-3
In reply to this post by Tim Chase
* Tim Chase <[hidden email]> [2015-01-30 23:23]:

> On 2015-01-30 14:57, Eric Weir wrote:
> > Wondering if there are any poets here
> > who use vim in writing poetry..
> While I mostly code using vim (which is slick),
> I find that for prose it can do the trick.
> And poems that rhyme?
> You'll find that this time,
> I used it to author a limerick.
>
> As for plugins, I have to disclose,
> I don't use them for poems or prose.
> But for my writing projects
> Parens and text-objects
> Are the first things to learn, I propose.

nailed it!  :-)

about writing/presenting poems
i had some formatting in mind,
such as this one:

:center 50

 While I mostly code using vim (which is slick),
    I find that for prose it can do the trick.
              And poems that rhyme?
           You'll find that this time,
         I used it to author a limerick.
 
       As for plugins, I have to disclose,
       I don't use them for poems or prose.
           But for my writing projects
             Parens and text-objects
    Are the first things to learn, I propose.

:-)

Sven

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Re: vim too complicated? or too powerful?

Tim Chase
In reply to this post by Sven Guckes-3
On 2015-01-31 02:45, Sven Guckes wrote:
> you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
> reason why it hasnt been added.  one of these is
> the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
> one is that it should work on terminals as well.

Not only could you add these dialogs to vim, they already exist
there ;-)

  :help :promptfind
  :help :promptrepl

Okay, I believe they only work in gvim, but I'd suspect that a person
having trouble with vim may also display a disinclination to use the
command prompt and thus is using gvim instead of console vim.

>> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.
>
> it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
> that's *your* task.  besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!

And if only gvim offered some sort of menu to expose all manner of
functionality so you didn't have to remember it.  Oh.  Wait.  It
does that too. :-)

>> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
>> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
>> and wish I had a regular editor.
>
> a *regular* editor?  well, the text editor
> compendium lists 200+ of them.  use one!

Ah, you (kouzennoki/Xen) must be talking about ed(1), the standard
editor[1].  Copying text between files using ed(1) is far more
challenging.

As Sven mentions, vim gives you 26+ named registers into which you can
stash text, and paste that content into any additional file you have.
Moving text around in vim is actually far easier than in any other
editor I've used.

-tim

[1] https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html




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Re: Any poets here?

Tim Chase
In reply to this post by kouzennoki
On 2015-01-30 23:37, [hidden email] wrote:
> LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.
>
> Let's check Debian...
>
> NEITHER :P.

While I can't speak to the specifics of KUBUNTU over Ubuntu, I'm darn
certain that Debian & Ubuntu both include it vim out of the box. I
just installed several Debian boxes (stable, testing, and unstable)
and an Ubuntu box, and vi/vim was available out of the box on every
one of them. And the BSDs all come with vi (though nvi, not vim) out
of the box. And Redhat. And Slackware. Having vi (or a clone) is part
of POSIX compliance, so any system striving to meet standards includes
it. Along with ed(1) :-D

-tim



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Re: vim - :promptfind + :promptrepl

Sven Guckes-3
In reply to this post by Tim Chase
* Tim Chase <[hidden email]> [2015-01-31 04:38]:
> On 2015-01-31 02:45, Sven Guckes wrote:
> > you could add these dialogs to vim - but there is a
> > reason why it hasnt been added.  one of these is
> > the consistency with its ancestor "vi" - and another
> > one is that it should work on terminals as well.
> Not only could you add these dialogs
> to vim, they already exist there ;-)
>   :help :promptfind
>   :help :promptrepl

i had feared that.

  $ vim
  :promptrepl
  E319: Sorry, the command is not available in this version

whew.

oh my.. my system does have a gvim - who knew?
so here is how this dialog looks like:

    http://www.guckes.net/vim/pics/gvim_promptfind.png
    http://www.guckes.net/vim/pics/gvim.promptrepl.ed.vim.png

so.. use tab and shift-tab to move around, use the space
bar and arrows left/right to toggle those radio buttons,
and then use alt-tab to switch between gvim and the
dialog box (and everything else on that desktop).

now, those key commands are all *really* intuitive
and do not require any instructions because we
had all been born with that knowledge, right??
nipples and all.. (see sig)

come to think of it.. are these keys
described anywhere in the vim docs?

hmm.. when have i ever used "gvim" at all?
way back when i needed a "vi" on the Mac..
then vim-3 was ported to Mac.. i was happy.
but  vim-4 was not proted to the Mac.. unhappy.
i was still waiting for Apple Unix to converge
with its interface.. but Mac OS X definitely came
too late. i had migrated to linux way before.

and i still think that porting it to Windows
was giving away a huge reason to switch.
meanwhile  i am probably happy that vim
exists for windows.  do we really want
to them to call unix services?  right.

> Okay, I believe they only work in gvim, but I'd
> suspect that a person having trouble with vim may
> also display a disinclination to use the command
> prompt and thus is using gvim instead of console vim.

gui people probably use something more graphical, anyway.

i find it very amusing that some people won't remember
to search with ignore-case using "/foo/i" - but they
sure know that the command can be found going to the
top menu, left hand side, some menu starting with 'f',
third or fourth submenu down to "find..." and then
in a subsubmenu they will find that extra "hidden"
command with the dialog: "find with ignorecase.." o_O

of course you can force yourself to learn
non-gui commands by turning all menus OFF:

    :unmenu! *

(i actually had to look for that command
in the help files as i had never used it)

when i teach (workshops etc) then one of the
first things i do is pull the plug on the mice.
some folks then are completely lost. *sigh*

> >> I still don't know or remember how to do window editing.
> > it is not the program's task to make remember everything.
> > that's *your* task.  besides, there's ":help". a lot of it!
> And if only gvim offered some sort of menu to expose all
> manner of functionality so you didn't have to remember it.
> Oh.  Wait.  It does that too. :-)

of course! :)

> >> The whole prospect of having to copy text from one
> >> file to another with Vim makes me feel miserable
> >> and wish I had a regular editor.
> > a *regular* editor?  well, the text editor
> > compendium lists 200+ of them.  use one!
> Ah, you (kouzennoki/Xen) must be talking about
> ed(1), the standard editor[1].  Copying text between
> files using ed(1) is far more challenging.

talk about a 42K program not having IDE support. :-P

> As Sven mentions, vim gives you 26+ named registers into
> which you can stash text, and paste that content into
> any additional file you have.  Moving text around in vim
> is actually far easier than in any other editor I've used.

some find out earlier than others.  and some die before
learning that there already had been a solution. how sad.

> [1] https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html

heh!

Sven

--
"Ed, man! !man ed"
"Ed is the standard text editor."
http://www.guckes.net/ed/ed.png
http://www.guckes.net/talks/ed_the_standard_editor.txt
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/misc/nipple.html

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Re: Any poets here?

Erik Christiansen
In reply to this post by Tim Chase
On 30.01.15 21:18, Tim Chase wrote:

> On 2015-01-30 23:37, [hidden email] wrote:
> > LISTEN UP FOLKS. KUBUNTU DOES NOT BY DEFAULT INSTALL VIM :P.
> >
> > Let's check Debian...
> >
> > NEITHER :P.
>
> While I can't speak to the specifics of KUBUNTU over Ubuntu, I'm darn
> certain that Debian & Ubuntu both include it vim out of the box. I
> just installed several Debian boxes (stable, testing, and unstable)
> and an Ubuntu box, and vi/vim was available out of the box on every
> one of them. And the BSDs all come with vi (though nvi, not vim) out
> of the box. And Redhat. And Slackware. Having vi (or a clone) is part
> of POSIX compliance, so any system striving to meet standards includes
> it. Along with ed(1) :-D

What is found on some distros is that there is no "vim" in the command
path, but whenever I've encountered that, it is simply because vim has
supplanted obsolete vi:

$ file /etc/alternatives/vi
/etc/alternatives/vi: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/vim.basic'

Has that led to some initial confusion? (Or is it called kvim there?)

Erik
(Who kan't kwite kome to kterms with kommand knames in kkubuntu.)

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greenhouse gas emissions has the world barrelling towards at least four degrees
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that would fundamentally reshape the planet as we know it.
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Re: Any poets here?

Tim Chase
On 2015-01-31 21:41, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> What is found on some distros is that there is no "vim" in the
> command path, but whenever I've encountered that, it is simply
> because vim has supplanted obsolete vi:
>
> $ file /etc/alternatives/vi
> /etc/alternatives/vi: symbolic link to `/usr/bin/vim.basic'
>
> Has that led to some initial confusion?

perhaps. I type "vi" everywhere, sometimes I get vim, sometimes I get
nvi, but it's always there (except in some odd non-POSIX spins where
they truly give a stripped down system and you have to add
EVERYTHING).  And on Debian/Ubuntu/RH/Slack, when I type "vi", the
splash screen says "vim" :-)

> (Who kan't kwite kome to kterms with kommand knames in kkubuntu.)

You and me both. :-/

-tim




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Re: Any poets here?

Eric Weir
In reply to this post by Eric Weir

> On Jan 30, 2015, at 5:56 PM, Eric Weir <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 30, 2015, at 4:56 PM, Eric Weir <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> QuickCursor used let me use vim as my preferred editor in other apps, e.g., in Apple Mail. Alas, the steps Apple took to improve security by isolating apps from one other rendered QuickCursor unusable. Oh how I wish that problem could be overcome.  
>
> It seems my wish has been granted. Whoopee! (Hope it works. Comments suggest it does.) Not free, though. <http://blog.hogbaysoftware.com/post/2623776146/quickcursor-now-available-in-mac-app-store>

Wrong! That link references the version of QuickCursor that has been discontinued. I was thrown of by the date on the link to this page in Google. And the description at this link sounds like the problem created by Apple’s sandboxing of apps had been overcome. Alas, not so.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
[hidden email]

“...we are a form of invitation to others and to otherness..."

- David Whyte

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Oh no! Vim eats my text - Naughty Vim. [Was: Any poets here?]

Erik Christiansen
In reply to this post by kouzennoki
On 30.01.15 21:11, [hidden email] wrote:
> Sometimes hating the day I (or it) was born when I accidentily delete a
> piece of text and I cannot revert the change for some reason.

Accidental deletion becomes less frequent with increasing competence in
the use of an editor ... here, often awareness of the current mode. Lack
of concentration can lead to loss of mode awareness, and result in
clumsy mis-edits. PEBKAC. Vim removes any painful consequences, whatever
the cause though, through its marvellous multi-level undo facility. If
you have used vim for more than a day or two, and _still_ muck up the
undo, then:

:h undo

and _practice_!  ("Do, or do not; there is no try.")

On 30.01.15 22:59, [hidden email] wrote:
> Learning or reading documentation to do simple things is not exactly my
> favourite pastime, eventually especially when you forget how to do a certain
> thing again because it never quite makes it to muscle memory.

The basic problem was already evident in the prior post. ;-)

(Note: I keep a set of personal "help" notes, which over the years has
accumulated to nearly 400 pages, though only 29 of them relate to vim.
Vim's folding capability presents all 400 pages as one - the first level
headings. But keyword searching takes me directly to what I want in
seconds. Most doco describes "how" to do a thing - but initially we
don't know "what" to look for. For my own use, I document "how" under
"what" I'm trying to do, so the method is rapidly found later, even if
it's years before I need it again.)

> So Vim is for me 80% frustration and 80% delight, if such a thing were
> possible :p.

Not only possible, but understandable - yet entirely self-created by
a learning laziness, as you show yourself at the first opportunity:

> Even writing this email in Alpine (Pico) is just amazingly relaxing compared
> to having to do such a thing in Vi. Arrow keys always do what they should, I
> don't have to remember HJKL keys

The arrow keys work fine in vim, and there is no need to use HJKL.
If you have a terminal problem which miscodes those keys, so that they
are not recognised by vim, then why do you not:

a) Fix it in the terminal config, or
b) Fix it in .vimrc, or
c) Google for a fix, or
d) Post a message for information, rather than just a moan.

Vim is powerful, but does demand a learning commitment, because of
that. If the failing mode awareness is due to ageing wetware (and
therefore more difficult to overcome), then one of many useful vim
configurations might help.

In addition to displaying the mode on the status line:

set showmode

I change the cursor colour in insert mode:

" Cursor Appearance:   (Insert_Mode == Green, Normal_Mode == Red)
if &term =~ "xterm"
   let &t_SI = "\<Esc>]12;green\x7"
   let &t_EI = "\<Esc>]12;red\x7"
endif

and if muscle memory prefers:

" These days I expect to be out of insert mode, after a line change:
inoremap <Up> ^[<Up>
inoremap <Down> ^[<Down>

If you can be more specific about the precise clumsiness you're using to
defeat vim's undo, we can be more specific in the documentation we
advise you to read, and the exercises which could improve your
competence. (Then keep notes, so you do not forget.)

All the best,

Erik
(Who uses only vim - every day - and cannot remember losing any text
during an edit session, at least not in the last twenty years. (Some of
that might have been vi, where the risk of losing a paragraph was greater.))

--
Women love to play the victim because it attracts three of the things they love
the most: attention, sympathy and special treatment. Conversely, men who act
like victims receive suspicion, ridicule and no sex, ever. - Mike J

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