Discrepancies with Debian/Ubuntu, documentation, and some questions

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Discrepancies with Debian/Ubuntu, documentation, and some questions

Mark S.
Hello,

I've noticed that are have already been some posts from people about not being
able to get VO to work under Debian/Ubuntu. Debian/Ubuntu wants to put the
various VO file/directories under the directory:

   /usr/share/vim/addons

but (apparently) the proper directory is

  /usr/share/vim/vim71

for vim 7.1. Or at least that's where I had to move them to get VO to work.

Possibly someone with authority could alert the Debian people of the
inconsistency.

The documentation for VO refers to a perl script having the pl extension
(vo_maketags) and to a couple of python scripts having the py extension.
However, Debian puts these files into /usr/bin without an extension. However,
the VO menu still calls otl2html.py (with the extension).

QUESTION: Which file do I modify to get the menu to only call otl2html
(without the extension) ?

The documentation refers to comma-comma commands, but apparently the backslash
is the right keystroke for the job under Debian.

QUESTION: I like comma-comma better -- is there a way I can get this behavior
back?

QUESTION: Why is the vimoutliner.org site so dormant? It looks like nothing
has happened since September 07. I'm asking because I'm hesitant to start a
new learning curve on a product if its no longer supported.

Thanks --
Mark
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Re: Discrepancies with Debian/Ubuntu, documentation, and some questions

Steve Litt
On Thursday 22 May 2008 00:25, Mark S. wrote:

> QUESTION: Why is the vimoutliner.org site so dormant? It looks like nothing
> has happened since September 07. I'm asking because I'm hesitant to start a
> new learning curve on a product if its no longer supported.

I think we're not doing much development because we're satisfied with the main
VimOutliner product. Except for cloning, it has everything Grandview had, and
it's MUCH faster for a touch typist. My understanding is that VO is right up
there with the "golden age" outliners of the late 1980's and early 1990's.

VO is now a pretty mature product. Speaking for myself, it does everything I
could ever dream of except cloning, and I doubt cloning is possible using Vim
as an engine.

The other VO feature not mature is hoisting -- it sometimes does bad things
and I wouldn't use it. Personally, I don't need hoisting, and I guess most
others feel the same way.

The main action in the VimOutliner world has been addons, the latest of which
is the TKDO project, which, if I understand correctly, implements a loose
subset of GTD (Getting Things Done methodology) using VimOutliner outlines as
its native format.

As far as the worry that it isn't supported, don't worry about that. If our
current maintainer and main developer, Noel Henson, was run over by a train,
and then a future Vim broke VO, I can probably name at least five people
ready, willing and able to make it work again. I would be one of them. There
are probably more than 20 people on this list whose daily business activities
are completely integrated with VO. I'm one of them.

Hope this helps.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

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Re: Discrepancies with Debian/Ubuntu, documentation, and some questions

Tim Roberts
Steve Litt wrote:
On Thursday 22 May 2008 00:25, Mark S. wrote:

  
QUESTION: Why is the vimoutliner.org site so dormant? It looks like nothing
has happened since September 07. I'm asking because I'm hesitant to start a
new learning curve on a product if its no longer supported.
    

I think we're not doing much development because we're satisfied with the main 
VimOutliner product.

I see questions like this every now and then about open source projects, and I'm always amused by them.  After all, one of the things we hate about Microsoft is their penchant for continual, ongoing, useless modifications adding feature bloat to stable, working products.

Personally, I'm very grateful when a project transitions to a "done" state.
-- 
Tim Roberts, [hidden email]
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

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Re: Discrepancies with Debian/Ubuntu, documentation, and some questions

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:29:21AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thursday 22 May 2008 00:25, Mark S. wrote:
>
> > QUESTION: Why is the vimoutliner.org site so dormant? It looks like nothing
> > has happened since September 07. I'm asking because I'm hesitant to start a
> > new learning curve on a product if its no longer supported.
VO seems quite stable, and the community seems to br thriving, OMHO.

On the topic of debian discrepancies, knowing what's breaking, could VO not
"ship with" symlinks to compensate ?

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Re: Discrepancies with Debian/Ubuntu, documentation, and some questions

Ross Boylan
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 10:29 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Thursday 22 May 2008 00:25, Mark S. wrote:
>
> > QUESTION: Why is the vimoutliner.org site so dormant? It looks like nothing
> > has happened since September 07. I'm asking because I'm hesitant to start a
> > new learning curve on a product if its no longer supported.
>
> I think we're not doing much development because we're satisfied with the main
> VimOutliner product. Except for cloning, it has everything Grandview had, and
> it's MUCH faster for a touch typist. My understanding is that VO is right up
> there with the "golden age" outliners of the late 1980's and early 1990's.
As someone who still runs GrandView, I notice some features that VO
lacks.

GV has categories, initially importance, date, and who, but extensible.
These provide the ability to slice into the outline in different ways.
The recent schemes for GTD like functionality seem to offer something
like this, at least for the GTD categories.  But they sound not as
integrated to me.

GV knows it's an outline and sometimes VO doesn't.  If you move a
selection from one part of the outline to another, GV will automatically
adjust its level. VO does not.

VO can't read GV outlines, which is one reason I keep using them.  I
have made some stabs at reverse engineering, but without much luck.

I don't use it much, but GV has a couple options for easily sorting
members of an outline.

There are a number of things I know how to do easily in GV.  I suspect
if I knew VIM better they could be done there too, but I'm not sure.  In
GV you can graphically drag parts of the outline around with a mouse.
You can mark disjointed parts of the outline and move/copy/clone them to
another location.  GV supports fancy formatting options.

I think GV can easily change the depth of outline displayed for a
particular part of the outline; I think in VO you have to do it to the
entire document.

There are things VO has that GV doesn't: outlines are easily readable in
other tools; it is open source and works with current operating systems
(GV is not only closed source but dead); it is not limited by the DOS
memory limits.

>
> VO is now a pretty mature product. Speaking for myself, it does everything I
> could ever dream of except cloning, and I doubt cloning is possible using Vim
> as an engine.
>
> The other VO feature not mature is hoisting -- it sometimes does bad things
> and I wouldn't use it. Personally, I don't need hoisting, and I guess most
> others feel the same way.
>
> The main action in the VimOutliner world has been addons, the latest of which
> is the TKDO project, which, if I understand correctly, implements a loose
> subset of GTD (Getting Things Done methodology) using VimOutliner outlines as
> its native format.
>
> As far as the worry that it isn't supported, don't worry about that. If our
> current maintainer and main developer, Noel Henson, was run over by a train,
> and then a future Vim broke VO, I can probably name at least five people
> ready, willing and able to make it work again. I would be one of them. There
> are probably more than 20 people on this list whose daily business activities
> are completely integrated with VO. I'm one of them.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> SteveT
>  
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
--
Ross Boylan                                      wk:  (415) 514-8146
185 Berry St #5700                               [hidden email]
Dept of Epidemiology and Biostatistics           fax: (415) 514-8150
University of California, San Francisco
San Francisco, CA 94107-1739                     hm:  (415) 550-1062

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Re: Discrepancies with Debian/Ubuntu, documentation, and some questions

Scott Scriven-2
In reply to this post by Mark S.
* Mark S. <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've noticed that are have already been some posts from people
> about not being able to get VO to work under Debian/Ubuntu.

I started out with the debian package for vim-vimoutliner, but it
broke during an upgrade and I've since had no luck getting it to
work.  Instead, I just do a personal install inside ~/.vim/ .  
This is easier for me for two reasons:

  - It works without trying to figure out what the package
    maintainer broke.

  - I can check it into svn and then it gets automatic updates on
    all my systems.

Also, this makes it easier for me to patch VO.  I just change
whatever I like, then "svn diff" when I'm done.

> Possibly someone with authority could alert the Debian people
> of the inconsistency.

That's probably the best solution. Everyone benefits if you can
get the package fixed.  :)

> QUESTION: Why is the vimoutliner.org site so dormant? It looks
> like nothing has happened since September 07. I'm asking
> because I'm hesitant to start a new learning curve on a product
> if its no longer supported.

Vimoutliner hasn't had many recent updates because:

  - Most of the users are satisfied with it as-is.  It already
    does most of what it should do.

  - Many of the features VO could use would be ... rather
    difficult to add.

So, as Steve mentioned, a lot of the activity is outside of VO
itself, in the form of add-ons and related utilities.


-- Scott
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Re: Discrepancies with Debian/Ubuntu, documentation, and some questions

Ross Boylan
On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 15:29 -0600, Scott Scriven wrote:
> > Possibly someone with authority could alert the Debian people
> > of the inconsistency.
>
> That's probably the best solution. Everyone benefits if you can
> get the package fixed.  :)
>
Anybody can file a bug in Debian.  Personally, I haven't had problems
apart from the need to manually activate some plugins.  I gather
the Debian maintainer thinks this is most consistent with upstream vim
policy.
--
Ross Boylan                                      wk:  (415) 514-8146
185 Berry St #5700                               [hidden email]
Dept of Epidemiology and Biostatistics           fax: (415) 514-8150
University of California, San Francisco
San Francisco, CA 94107-1739                     hm:  (415) 550-1062

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