It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

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It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Ruben Safir
If you don't believe it, try it.  It just enters a loop where it keeps sending you a confirmation link but never confirms

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Christian Brabandt

On Mo, 06 Aug 2018, [hidden email] wrote:

> If you don't believe it, try it.  It just enters a loop where it keeps
> sending you a confirmation link but never confirms

Well, I am using a different mail account than google and subscription
worked. Perhaps something changed on the google side however over time
since I used it. But you should complain to google then. Nothing we have
control of.

Best,
Christian
--
Bei der Eröffnung der Fitneß-Messe in Essen hat ein Sprecher gesagt:
"Der klassische Bodybuilder stirbt aus. Unser Tip: Nicht alle
Medikamente auf einmal nehmen."

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Ruben Safir
On 08/06/2018 11:02 AM, Christian Brabandt wrote:
> Well, I am using a different mail account than google and subscription
> worked.


well it doesn't work.

It just sends confirmation emails over and over.  I does work if you
have a google account through the web browser.



--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Christian Brabandt

On Mo, 06 Aug 2018, Ruben Safir wrote:

> It just sends confirmation emails over and over.  I does work if you
> have a google account through the web browser.

Well first message needs confirmation by a moderator. Perhaps that was
the problem?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian
--
Gleiche oder wenigstens ähnliche Wirkungen werden auf
verschiedene Weise durch Naturkräfte hervorgebracht.
                -- Goethe, Maximen und Reflektionen, Nr. 922

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Bram Moolenaar
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir

> If you don't believe it, try it.  It just enters a loop where it keeps
> sending you a confirmation link but never confirms

Support page: https://support.google.com/groups/answer/1067205?hl=en

        Join a Google group without a Gmail address

        If you don't have a Google Account, you can:
        - Read posts in public groups
        - Search for posts in public groups

        You need a Google Account to:
        - Create and manage a group
        - Join a group
        - Post to a group
        - Delete a post
        - Read a restricted group's posts


It's probably because one has to accept the terms of use before you can
post anything, which is reasonable.  There is too much spam and other
crap already.  That's the whole reason we don't use something else or
run our own.

You don't need to use your real name or anything, you can just create a
Google account specifically for the group.  However, we do like to know
who you are! :-)

--
CONCORDE:  Quickly, sir, come this way!
LAUNCELOT: No!  It's not right for my idiom.  I must escape more  ... more ...
CONCORDE:  Dramatically, sir?
LAUNCELOT: Dramatically.
                 "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" PYTHON (MONTY) PICTURES LTD

 /// Bram Moolenaar -- [hidden email] -- http://www.Moolenaar.net   \\\
///        sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
\\\  an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org        ///
 \\\            help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org    ///

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

David Woodfall
On Monday 6 August 2018 22:58,
Bram Moolenaar <[hidden email]> put forth the proposition:

> If you don't have a Google Account, you can:
> - Read posts in public groups
> - Search for posts in public groups
>
> You need a Google Account to:
> - Create and manage a group
> - Join a group
> - Post to a group
> - Delete a post
> - Read a restricted group's posts
>
> It's probably because one has to accept the terms of use before you can
> post anything, which is reasonable.  There is too much spam and other
> crap already.  That's the whole reason we don't use something else or
> run our own.

After reading this thread I decided to look into another solution for
our Studioware group because we also use google groups. I wasn't
aware of this problem before and only set it up because it was easier
than dealing with mailman administration.

I came across this site:

http://librelist.com

I've just sent off an email to start a list, and I guess I'll see how
it goes. Mind you, our membership is much smaller than Vim's. Which
brings me to another point - even though I created the google group I
don't see any kind of admin panel anywhere, to eg get a list of
subscribers. I found a couple of articles online, but the settings
that they point to don't seem to exist for me.

--

There are two types of Linux developers - those who can spell, and
those who can't.  There is a constant pitched battle between the two.
  -- From one of the post-1.1.54 kernel update messages posted to c.o.l.a

                                                            .--.  oo
                                                           (____)//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Ruben Safir
In reply to this post by Bram Moolenaar
On 08/06/2018 04:58 PM, Bram Moolenaar wrote:

>
>> If you don't believe it, try it.  It just enters a loop where it keeps
>> sending you a confirmation link but never confirms
>
> Support page: https://support.google.com/groups/answer/1067205?hl=en
>
> Join a Google group without a Gmail address
>
> If you don't have a Google Account, you can:
> - Read posts in public groups
> - Search for posts in public groups
>
> You need a Google Account to:
> - Create and manage a group
> - Join a group
> - Post to a group
> - Delete a post
> - Read a restricted group's posts
>
>
> It's probably because one has to accept the terms of use before you can
> post anything, which is reasonable.  There is too much spam and other
> crap already.  That's the whole reason we don't use something else or
> run our own.
>
> You don't need to use your real name or anything, you can just create a
> Google account specifically for the group.  However, we do like to know
> who you are! :-)
>


The points you make are trivial compared to the realtime tracking and
the threat to my safety that google presents.  I do not want them to
know the IP address that I entered from.  I do not want them building a
foot print of my emails to the list.  I do not to turn off the no-script
protections in the browser so that they then accumulate  60 more data
points on my identity and activities.  This is a much larger problem
than any spam problem.  I run 4 mailing lists, and none have seen spam
in 10 years.  Having an account with google is an unsafe practice that
will lead to identity theft, exploitation, and detailed tracking, which
is a form of rape.  They form an acurate profile that they use against
my interests and which I do not want them to have... and neither should
anyone else.

I strongly suggest you reconsider this.

Ruben

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Christian Brabandt

On Di, 07 Aug 2018, Ruben Safir wrote:

> I strongly suggest you reconsider this.

The list is running for years on google and no one has ever had a
problem with this. However we have seen some spam and occasionally, I
have to delete bogus accounts trying to send spam messages to the list.

In addition, asking questions here on the lists has the benefit of being
publicly available and viewable, so that links to older threads can
easily found and google can show up search results for people looking
for help.

If you really want to keep your privacy, it might be better to use a
system like tor browser, which you could use to setup a pseudo account
on google. That might be a good idea to do in general, if you don't
trust Google Facebook or any other one.

So while I agree, that people nowadays need to be conscious about what
they do on the net, I don't think it applies to this lists here.

Best,
Christian
--
Anteilnehmende Freundschaft macht das Glück strahlender und
erleichtert das Unglück.
                -- Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 v.Chr.)

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Christian Brabandt
In reply to this post by David Woodfall

On Di, 07 Aug 2018, David Woodfall wrote:

> brings me to another point - even though I created the google group I
> don't see any kind of admin panel anywhere, to eg get a list of
> subscribers. I found a couple of articles online, but the settings
> that they point to don't seem to exist for me.

So for vim_use, I can manage the subscribers using the following link:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!managemembers/vim_use/members

In addition, on the left side of the browser, I have a menu with all
different settings for the list I manage. Of course this is only visible
when I am using logged into google and that account is a manager account
for that list


Best,
Christian
--
In einer ewigen Meßstadt würde alle Menschenliebe aufhören.
                -- Jean Paul

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Bram Moolenaar
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir

Rubn Safir wrote:

> On 08/06/2018 04:58 PM, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
> >
> >> If you don't believe it, try it.  It just enters a loop where it keeps
> >> sending you a confirmation link but never confirms
> >
> > Support page: https://support.google.com/groups/answer/1067205?hl=en
> >
> > Join a Google group without a Gmail address
> >
> > If you don't have a Google Account, you can:
> > - Read posts in public groups
> > - Search for posts in public groups
> >
> > You need a Google Account to:
> > - Create and manage a group
> > - Join a group
> > - Post to a group
> > - Delete a post
> > - Read a restricted group's posts
> >
> >
> > It's probably because one has to accept the terms of use before you can
> > post anything, which is reasonable.  There is too much spam and other
> > crap already.  That's the whole reason we don't use something else or
> > run our own.
> >
> > You don't need to use your real name or anything, you can just create a
> > Google account specifically for the group.  However, we do like to know
> > who you are! :-)
>
>
> The points you make are trivial compared to the realtime tracking and
> the threat to my safety that google presents.  I do not want them to
> know the IP address that I entered from.  I do not want them building a
> foot print of my emails to the list.  I do not to turn off the no-script
> protections in the browser so that they then accumulate  60 more data
> points on my identity and activities.  This is a much larger problem
> than any spam problem.  I run 4 mailing lists, and none have seen spam
> in 10 years.  Having an account with google is an unsafe practice that
> will lead to identity theft, exploitation, and detailed tracking, which
> is a form of rape.  They form an acurate profile that they use against
> my interests and which I do not want them to have... and neither should
> anyone else.
>
> I strongly suggest you reconsider this.

I suggest you disconnect from the Internet.  Really, the moment you
plugin you lost control.  I used to connect though a modem, and know
what went over the line.  These days that is totally impossible.

Did you know your mobile phone is tracked all the time, and the data
stored for months or years?  Thus the phone company knows where you are
and where you've been.  Does that stop you from using a mobile phone?

I can assure you that Google is treating you well, much better than
others.  Any idea how many fixes in browsers, kernels and also in
MS-Windows Google has done to keep users safe?  It's an awful lot.

Google has pushed https forward, to make it much, much harder for
someone on the line to log your activity.  Guess why: this actually
happens.  All the time. So it doesn't matter where your maillists are
stored.  What matters is that the connection is security encrypted.

So yes, the internet is a dangerous place, anything can go wrong.
It's almost like driving a car.  Except you can't get physically hurt.

I get a bit tired of this Google-bashing by people that don't know what
is actually happening.  First do fact checking before you believe what
you read.

--
Be nice to your kids...  they'll be the ones choosing your nursing home.

 /// Bram Moolenaar -- [hidden email] -- http://www.Moolenaar.net   \\\
///        sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
\\\  an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org        ///
 \\\            help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org    ///

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

David Woodfall
In reply to this post by Christian Brabandt
On Tuesday 7 August 2018 08:44,
Christian Brabandt <[hidden email]> put forth the proposition:

>
> On Di, 07 Aug 2018, David Woodfall wrote:
>
> > brings me to another point - even though I created the google group I
> > don't see any kind of admin panel anywhere, to eg get a list of
> > subscribers. I found a couple of articles online, but the settings
> > that they point to don't seem to exist for me.
>
> So for vim_use, I can manage the subscribers using the following link:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!managemembers/vim_use/members
>
> In addition, on the left side of the browser, I have a menu with all
> different settings for the list I manage. Of course this is only visible
> when I am using logged into google and that account is a manager account
> for that list

Thanks for the link. When I tried it it just took me to the normal
list view though: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/studioware

I wonder if it's because I chose to post to the list from my
studioware address and I haven't linked it to my google account?

But I think that I'll still try to find an alternative. I really
don't think it's in our interest that people should need to create a
google account to join and post, just for the inconvenience of it
really.

Re the privacy points that have been raised:

FWIW I've been using a variety of google's tools over the past
decades with no complaint at all. Having said that, nowadays I do
prefer to use other services for many things, mainly to be in a
smaller "pond" and not part of some global company.

While I agree that it's important to be aware of tracking, privacy
and similar issues, /every/ mailing list hoster only has to check his
maillog to see the IPs and other info about the posters, and anyone
hosting a website only has to look at their httpd logs to do the
same, not to mention use cookies, webbugs or any method that they
like to track/fingerprint people. I guess as soon as a company gets
big enough they will become the target for a vast increase in
scrutiny.

There are ways to avoid these issues, including not using the
services at all - vote with your feet.

-Dave

--

Q: Would you like to see the WINE list?
A: What's on it, anything expensive?
Q: No, just Solitaire and MineSweeper for now, but the WINE is free.
  -- Kevin M. Bealer, about the WINdows Emulator

                                                            .--.  oo
                                                           (____)//
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~'

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Ruben Safir
On 08/07/2018 12:13 PM, David Woodfall wrote:
> While I agree that it's important to be aware of tracking, privacy
> and similar issues, /every/ mailing list hoster only has to check his
> maillog to see the IPs and other info about the posters


That is no excuse to expose that information to a third party,
particularly a company that actively tracks people like google does.

This stalking behavior on the part of various companies, particularly
google and amazon, is not acceptable.  And FWIW, this is not a privacy
issue.  Stalking someone is different than just invading someones
privacy.  It is a whole other level of criminal behaviors which if an
individual did such a thing in the physical world, they would simply be
arrested.

Ruben

--
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps,
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Bram Moolenaar

Ruben Safir wrote:

> On 08/07/2018 12:13 PM, David Woodfall wrote:
> > While I agree that it's important to be aware of tracking, privacy
> > and similar issues, /every/ mailing list hoster only has to check his
> > maillog to see the IPs and other info about the posters
>
>
> That is no excuse to expose that information to a third party,
> particularly a company that actively tracks people like google does.
>
> This stalking behavior on the part of various companies, particularly
> google and amazon, is not acceptable.  And FWIW, this is not a privacy
> issue.  Stalking someone is different than just invading someones
> privacy.  It is a whole other level of criminal behaviors which if an
> individual did such a thing in the physical world, they would simply be
> arrested.

There is no such thing as stalking.  That's like saying the Gmail reads
your mail.  It's data processing, nothing else.  No human ever looks at
it.

--
Save the plankton - eat a whale.

 /// Bram Moolenaar -- [hidden email] -- http://www.Moolenaar.net   \\\
///        sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
\\\  an exciting new programming language -- http://www.Zimbu.org        ///
 \\\            help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org    ///

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Carlos Montijo
In reply to this post by Bram Moolenaar
On Tuesday, August 7, 2018 at 6:55:51 AM UTC-6, Bram Moolenaar wrote:
> I get a bit tired of this Google-bashing by people that don't know what
> is actually happening.  First do fact checking before you believe what
> you read.

Right, and "fact-checking" reveals that Google has unethical practices. Here's a recent post from the O'Reilly Web Newsletter:

3. Like it or not, Google's tracking you
Google's corporate conduct guidelines famously include the phrase "Don't be evil." But plenty of people find it evil that Google records and stores your movements even when you use privacy settings the company says prevent it from doing so. Read the Associated Press investigation into Google's location tracking. (https://apnews.com/f60bc112665b458cb6473d7ee9492932)

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Re: It is impossible to join unless you have a google account

Ben Fritz
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir
On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 10:00:41 AM UTC-5, [hidden email] wrote:
> If you don't believe it, try it.  It just enters a loop where it keeps sending you a confirmation link but never confirms

I was able to subscribe an alternate email address (my Yahoo spam dump account) just now in an "incognito window" in Chrome without ever logging into my Google account. As far as Google knows, this address is not associated with a Google account in any way.

Here's how:

Go to the main mailing list webpage. I usually type "groups.google.com/group/vim_use" and get redirected to the correct spot. Then append a "/join" to the URL:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/vim_use/join

Then enter your email address and prove you're a human. You'll get a confirmation email. Clicking "join this group" in the confirmation email opens Google Groups again and you'll get a "subscribe successful" message.

Screenshots attached.

Perhaps we should add instructions for this somewhere. I don't see a link to access that "/join" page from the list landing page but maybe it's hidden somewhere there.

For the list: this thread devolved VERY quickly. I'm shocked. The Vim mailing lists have usually been friendlier to new users. This is a *mailing list* and we shouldn't require a Google account to join it. Criticizing the user for not wanting to create a Google account, instead of helping, is something I didn't think I'd see here.

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join.png (87K) Download Attachment
success.png (92K) Download Attachment
confirm.png (276K) Download Attachment