New Server is online and being configured

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New Server is online and being configured

Noel Henson
Everyone,

The new server is up but I'm still configuring it. David Patrick has made
a very good case for using redmine as the CMS for VO. It has a nice feature
set for forums, source code and bug tracking, downloads, permissions, etc.  
Does anyone have any specific reasons why it would not be a good choice?

Also, should we move from using a mailing list for development? Perhaps
a forum would serve us better?

Noel

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Andy Todd
On 3/01/10 9:38 AM, Noel Henson wrote:

> Everyone,
>
> The new server is up but I'm still configuring it. David Patrick has made
> a very good case for using redmine as the CMS for VO. It has a nice feature
> set for forums, source code and bug tracking, downloads, permissions, etc.
> Does anyone have any specific reasons why it would not be a good choice?
>
> Also, should we move from using a mailing list for development? Perhaps
> a forum would serve us better?
>
> Noel
>

I don't have a strong opinion on Redmine, it looks to have everything
you need.

However, can I please ask that development stays on the mailing list.
Web forums are difficult to track and having updates come direct to my
inbox is much more preferable to me.

Regards,
Andy
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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Saturday 02 January 2010 17:38:55 Noel Henson wrote:
> Everyone,
>
> The new server is up but I'm still configuring it. David Patrick has made
> a very good case for using redmine as the CMS for VO. It has a nice feature
> set for forums, source code and bug tracking, downloads, permissions, etc.
> Does anyone have any specific reasons why it would not be a good choice?

No reasons it requires the users to sign some sort of shrinkware license,
especially the kind with indemnification clauses.

>
> Also, should we move from using a mailing list for development? Perhaps
> a forum would serve us better?

HECK no! I used forums back in the old days, and they were always out of
sight, out of mind. Mailing lists are soooo much better.

SteveT
 
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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Steve Litt
On Saturday 02 January 2010 20:55:46 Steve Litt wrote:

>
> No reasons it requires the users to sign some sort of shrinkware license,
> especially the kind with indemnification clauses.

Oops, I wrote it wrong. A clickthrough license would be a bad thing. An
indemnification clause would be a showstopper.

SteveT
 
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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Saturday 02 January 2010, Steve Litt wrote:
> No reasons it requires the users to sign some sort of shrinkware
> license, especially the kind with indemnification clauses.

Steve,

Could you elaborate on the issue and concerns a bit?

Noel

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Steve Litt
On Sunday 03 January 2010 13:39:35 Noel Henson wrote:

> On Saturday 02 January 2010, Steve Litt wrote:
> > No reasons it requires the users to sign some sort of shrinkware
> > license, especially the kind with indemnification clauses.
>
> Steve,
>
> Could you elaborate on the issue and concerns a bit?
>
> Noel
>

Here's an example of an indemnification clause:

===========================================
6. Indemnification. You shall indemnify, defend and hold YouTube, its agents,
affiliates, and licensors harmless from any claim, costs, losses, damages,
liabilities, judgments and expenses (including reasonable fees of attorneys
and other professionals), arising out of or in connection with any claim,
action or proceeding (any and all of which are "Claims") by a third party
arising out of Your use of the YouTube API in any manner that breaches this
Agreement or otherwise arising out of materials or technology contributed by
You and not by YouTube. At YouTube's option, You shall assume control of the
defense and settlement of any Claim subject to indemnification by You
(provided that, in such event, YouTube may at any time thereafter elect to
take over control of the defense and settlement of any such Claim, and in any
event, You shall not settle any such Claim without YouTube's prior written
consent).

7. Termination. Any licenses contained in this Agreement will
[irrelevant material clipped by Steve Litt]
 display of any advertisements associated with Your API Clients. Section III
of this Agreement shall survive any termination or expiration of this
Agreement and will continue to bind You in accordance with its terms.
===========================================

Let's take a look at that. The person who signs this agreement agrees to act
as an insurance agent for Youtube for any third party suit of Youtube "arising
out of" the signer's use of Youtube. It matters not whether the suit is
meritorious or not. It matters not whether Youtube is indeed at fault (a
misprint for instance). It matters not whether the third party is at fault.

Most of all, it matters not whether the third party is suing what he thinks is
deep pockets, while in reality the signer is footing the bill for both
litigation and settlement. Youtube could settle for $100K just to get rid of
it, and the signer goes bankrupt. For what? To post videos? Forget it!

It's not necessary. Even without the indemnification clause, there's nothing
stopping Youtube from suing the signer if the signer's action is so aggregeous
as to cause Youtube to lose the suit or be forced into settlement.

Note the final sentence of paragraph 7. The indemnification (which is part of
section III) survives contract termination. There is no time limit. The signer
could be forced to indemnify Youtube 20 years after quitting Youtube. There's
no monetary limit. If the signer inadvertently fails to get a release from
someone in the video and that someone sues for a million dollars, Youtube
could just hand it over to that person and the signer would foot the bill.

You cannot insure a contract containing an indemnification clause because the
insurer cannot ascertain percentage fault -- it's all on the signer even if
the signer is only 1% at fault and the third party is 99% at fault.

I've signed contracts with indemnification clauses a few times, but I could
probably count them on my fingers, and every time there was a legitimate
business reason for signing them and no way to get around them. I've also
declined $10,000 contracts when they refused to remove indemnification
clauses.

There's no way I'd ever put myself in that kind of legal jeopardy and
contingent liability just to belong to a mailing list. I wish more people
thought about what they signed so these contract drafters would be forced to
write less draconian contracts.

SteveT

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Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel Henson wrote:
> Everyone,
>
> The new server is up but I'm still configuring it. David Patrick has made
> a very good case for using redmine as the CMS for VO. It has a nice feature
> set for forums, source code and bug tracking, downloads, permissions, etc.  
> Does anyone have any specific reasons why it would not be a good choice?
Not me, only specific reasons why it should work as well for VO as it is
for taskwarrior.org.
>
> Also, should we move from using a mailing list for development? Perhaps
> a forum would serve us better?
please forgive the "task this, task that" noise, but I just wanted to
relate what that project has been going through;

-first it was piggybacking on the todo.txt mailing list.. got some stuff
across
-then we got a google-group, that allowed us to seriously develop for a
month, or so, till google interrupted the service..
-then we started up redmine issue-tracking, and have roared through the
summer and fall (up to now) enjoying collaborative development based on
feature-requests and bug-tracking issue management, as well as working
the wiki.
-and now we've decided to continue using redmine, but to over-lay a
specifications-based process, where features are first defined in a more
full specification, with discussion in the redmine forums, before work
really starts on it.

the (real) task developers (not me, I'm just the designer) use a
git-repo, and run a test-suite with tinderbox output, at tasktools.org

It all seems to be working remarkable well, and the growing test-suite
and packaging (as I understand it) keeps getting easier and easier.

No reason not to use it, from my perspective, I think it would be just
the ticket for VO.

djp
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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Sunday 03 January 2010, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Sunday 03 January 2010 13:39:35 Noel Henson wrote:
> > On Saturday 02 January 2010, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > No reasons it requires the users to sign some sort of shrinkware
> > > license, especially the kind with indemnification clauses.
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > Could you elaborate on the issue and concerns a bit?
> >
> > Noel
>
> Here's an example of an indemnification clause:
>
> ===========================================
> 6. Indemnification. You shall indemnify, defend and hold YouTube, its
> agents, affiliates, and licensors harmless from any claim, costs,
> losses, damages, liabilities, judgments and expenses (including
> reasonable fees of attorneys and other professionals), arising out of or
> in connection with any claim, action or proceeding (any and all of which
> are "Claims") by a third party arising out of Your use of the YouTube
> API in any manner that breaches this Agreement or otherwise arising out
> of materials or technology contributed by You and not by YouTube. At
> YouTube's option, You shall assume control of the defense and settlement
> of any Claim subject to indemnification by You (provided that, in such
> event, YouTube may at any time thereafter elect to take over control of
> the defense and settlement of any such Claim, and in any event, You
> shall not settle any such Claim without YouTube's prior written
> consent).
>
> 7. Termination. Any licenses contained in this Agreement will
> [irrelevant material clipped by Steve Litt]
>  display of any advertisements associated with Your API Clients. Section
> III of this Agreement shall survive any termination or expiration of
> this Agreement and will continue to bind You in accordance with its
> terms. ===========================================
>
> Let's take a look at that. The person who signs this agreement agrees to
> act as an insurance agent for Youtube for any third party suit of
> Youtube "arising out of" the signer's use of Youtube. It matters not
> whether the suit is meritorious or not. It matters not whether Youtube
> is indeed at fault (a misprint for instance). It matters not whether the
> third party is at fault.
>
> Most of all, it matters not whether the third party is suing what he
> thinks is deep pockets, while in reality the signer is footing the bill
> for both litigation and settlement. Youtube could settle for $100K just
> to get rid of it, and the signer goes bankrupt. For what? To post
> videos? Forget it!
>
> It's not necessary. Even without the indemnification clause, there's
> nothing stopping Youtube from suing the signer if the signer's action is
> so aggregeous as to cause Youtube to lose the suit or be forced into
> settlement.
>
> Note the final sentence of paragraph 7. The indemnification (which is
> part of section III) survives contract termination. There is no time
> limit. The signer could be forced to indemnify Youtube 20 years after
> quitting Youtube. There's no monetary limit. If the signer inadvertently
> fails to get a release from someone in the video and that someone sues
> for a million dollars, Youtube could just hand it over to that person
> and the signer would foot the bill.
>
> You cannot insure a contract containing an indemnification clause
> because the insurer cannot ascertain percentage fault -- it's all on the
> signer even if the signer is only 1% at fault and the third party is 99%
> at fault.
>
> I've signed contracts with indemnification clauses a few times, but I
> could probably count them on my fingers, and every time there was a
> legitimate business reason for signing them and no way to get around
> them. I've also declined $10,000 contracts when they refused to remove
> indemnification clauses.
>
> There's no way I'd ever put myself in that kind of legal jeopardy and
> contingent liability just to belong to a mailing list. I wish more
> people thought about what they signed so these contract drafters would
> be forced to write less draconian contracts.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo

Steve,

Got it.

Perhaps we could all work on something that makes sense and is in common
sense language.

Noel

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
On Sunday 03 January 2010, David J Patrick wrote:

> Noel Henson wrote:
> > Everyone,
> >
> > The new server is up but I'm still configuring it. David Patrick has
> > made a very good case for using redmine as the CMS for VO. It has a
> > nice feature set for forums, source code and bug tracking, downloads,
> > permissions, etc. Does anyone have any specific reasons why it would
> > not be a good choice?
>
> Not me, only specific reasons why it should work as well for VO as it is
> for taskwarrior.org.
>
> > Also, should we move from using a mailing list for development?
> > Perhaps a forum would serve us better?
>
> please forgive the "task this, task that" noise, but I just wanted to
> relate what that project has been going through;
>
> -first it was piggybacking on the todo.txt mailing list.. got some stuff
> across
> -then we got a google-group, that allowed us to seriously develop for a
> month, or so, till google interrupted the service..
> -then we started up redmine issue-tracking, and have roared through the
> summer and fall (up to now) enjoying collaborative development based on
> feature-requests and bug-tracking issue management, as well as working
> the wiki.
> -and now we've decided to continue using redmine, but to over-lay a
> specifications-based process, where features are first defined in a more
> full specification, with discussion in the redmine forums, before work
> really starts on it.
>
> the (real) task developers (not me, I'm just the designer) use a
> git-repo, and run a test-suite with tinderbox output, at tasktools.org
>
> It all seems to be working remarkable well, and the growing test-suite
> and packaging (as I understand it) keeps getting easier and easier.
>
> No reason not to use it, from my perspective, I think it would be just
> the ticket for VO.
>
> djp
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo

I'll give a few more days to a week to let people voice their opinions. If
no significant reasons against redmine come up, I'll let everyone know that
it has been officially chosen.

Noel

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Steve Litt
On Sunday 03 January 2010 22:42:38 Noel Henson wrote:

> I'll give a few more days to a week to let people voice their opinions. If
> no significant reasons against redmine come up, I'll let everyone know that
> it has been officially chosen.
>
> Noel

With Redmine, will we still have a mailing list as opposed to a forum?

Can you point us to some examples of existing Redmine sites?

Thanks

STeveT

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Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Sunday 03 January 2010 22:40:24 Noel Henson wrote:
 
> Steve,
>
> Got it.
>
> Perhaps we could all work on something that makes sense and is in common
> sense language.
>
> Noel
>

I was assuming that the legalese would come automatically with Redmine. If we
or you are in charge of the language, why have legalese at all? Just have
rules.

Here are GoLUG's mailing list rules, which I think are excellent:

http://golug.net/mailinglists.html

SteveT

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Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
Steve Litt wrote:
> With Redmine, will we still have a mailing list as opposed to a forum?
There's no reason for this mailing list to go away, so that's not going
to change. Redmine comes with a nice forum, but it's optional.
>
> Can you point us to some examples of existing Redmine sites?
there's a lot of 'em, but the one I'm most intimate with is
taskwarrior.org. It's all open source, so there's zero "shrink wrap"
issue. I personally think the forums are great /in addition to/ mailing
list. With redmine, I have a bit of fusion going, as any new submissions
to the forum (or any other aspect I choose) gets emailed to me (and
anyone else RSSing from it)
The clear advantage to the forum is that any interested visitors can
immediately access the discussions there, unlike a mailing list, and
topics and threads don't get tangled.
djp
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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Sunday 03 January 2010, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Sunday 03 January 2010 22:40:24 Noel Henson wrote:
> > Steve,
> >
> > Got it.
> >
> > Perhaps we could all work on something that makes sense and is in
> > common sense language.
> >
> > Noel
>
> I was assuming that the legalese would come automatically with Redmine.
> If we or you are in charge of the language, why have legalese at all?
> Just have rules.
>
> Here are GoLUG's mailing list rules, which I think are excellent:
>
> http://golug.net/mailinglists.html
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
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Just having a sane set of rules works for me.

Noel

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
On Sunday 03 January 2010, David J Patrick wrote:

> Steve Litt wrote:
> > With Redmine, will we still have a mailing list as opposed to a forum?
>
> There's no reason for this mailing list to go away, so that's not going
> to change. Redmine comes with a nice forum, but it's optional.
>
> > Can you point us to some examples of existing Redmine sites?
>
> there's a lot of 'em, but the one I'm most intimate with is
> taskwarrior.org. It's all open source, so there's zero "shrink wrap"
> issue. I personally think the forums are great /in addition to/ mailing
> list. With redmine, I have a bit of fusion going, as any new submissions
> to the forum (or any other aspect I choose) gets emailed to me (and
> anyone else RSSing from it)
> The clear advantage to the forum is that any interested visitors can
> immediately access the discussions there, unlike a mailing list, and
> topics and threads don't get tangled.
> djp
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo

I like keeping the mailing list and making it 'for developers and
contributing VO experts ONLY'. The forums can be used for users as well as
developers. The idea being that all the feature request and help noise will
be kept from active development.

Noel

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Re: New Server is online and being configured

David J Patrick-2
Noel Henson wrote:
>
> I like keeping the mailing list and making it 'for developers and
> contributing VO experts ONLY'. The forums can be used for users as well as
> developers. The idea being that all the feature request and help noise will
> be kept from active development.

exactly
djp
>
> Noel
>

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