Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Stefan Schmiedl
Peter Princz (04.09. 14:59):

> in that case I'm fully equipped for linking outline files, because I
> do have exuberant ctags installed on my PC and it works fine.

You might want to take a look at my outline calendar, available
on vimoutliner.org. Most of what I know about ctags and tag files
I learned while creating the ctags file for calendar tagging.

s.
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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Stefan Schmiedl
On Monday 04 September 2006 11:08 am, Stefan Schmiedl wrote:
> Steve Litt (04.09. 08:34):

> > Is there a different way that doesn't involve Ctags? I seem to remember
> > somebody doing something like that, but wasn't aware it was actually
> > implemented.
>
> IIRC we talked about creating tag entries via vimscript, ie. without
> additional tools, but at least on my side nothing more happened ...
> much too busy here.

Yeah, I didn't do anything about it either. Back in those days I didn't take
VO on Windows seriously, but now that a lot of people are using it on
Windows, a more OS independent method of interoutline linking might be
preferable.

If/when we implement it, we need to do so in a way that doesn't screw up
traditional interoutline linking. I've been using Ctags interoutline linking
since 2001.

I'd suggest we have a config flag for linking_portable or linking_classic, and
to start out with default it to linking_classic. As it proves itself able,
(and this includes performance), switch the default to linking_portable. If,
over a period of a year or 2 the portable method proves as good as or better
than classic in every respect, we can then deprecate classic.

Which leaves just one question -- who will develop the linking_portable code?
Probably the people with the biggest itch (and the greatest opportunity to
test it) will be the VO on Windows users. Perhaps some of them can develop
it, and of course, we VO on Linux people will test their code on Linux.

Sound like a reasonable plan?

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author:
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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Noel Henson
On Monday 04 September 2006 08:36, Steve Litt wrote:

>
> Yeah, I didn't do anything about it either. Back in those days I didn't
> take VO on Windows seriously, but now that a lot of people are using it
> on Windows, a more OS independent method of interoutline linking might
> be preferable.
>
> If/when we implement it, we need to do so in a way that doesn't screw up
> traditional interoutline linking. I've been using Ctags interoutline
> linking since 2001.
>
> I'd suggest we have a config flag for linking_portable or
> linking_classic, and to start out with default it to linking_classic. As
> it proves itself able, (and this includes performance), switch the
> default to linking_portable. If, over a period of a year or 2 the
> portable method proves as good as or better than classic in every
> respect, we can then deprecate classic.
>
> Which leaves just one question -- who will develop the linking_portable
> code? Probably the people with the biggest itch (and the greatest
> opportunity to test it) will be the VO on Windows users. Perhaps some of
> them can develop it, and of course, we VO on Linux people will test
> their code on Linux.
>
> Sound like a reasonable plan?
>
> SteveT
>

I think I'll be the one to develop it. There is an intra-file linking
plugin for vim that I'll take a look at. Hopefully I can get some ideas and
make it cross-platform.

Noel

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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Steve Litt
On Monday 04 September 2006 12:34 pm, Noel Henson wrote:

> On Monday 04 September 2006 08:36, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Yeah, I didn't do anything about it either. Back in those days I didn't
> > take VO on Windows seriously, but now that a lot of people are using it
> > on Windows, a more OS independent method of interoutline linking might
> > be preferable.
> >
> > If/when we implement it, we need to do so in a way that doesn't screw up
> > traditional interoutline linking. I've been using Ctags interoutline
> > linking since 2001.
> >
> > I'd suggest we have a config flag for linking_portable or
> > linking_classic, and to start out with default it to linking_classic. As
> > it proves itself able, (and this includes performance), switch the
> > default to linking_portable. If, over a period of a year or 2 the
> > portable method proves as good as or better than classic in every
> > respect, we can then deprecate classic.
> >
> > Which leaves just one question -- who will develop the linking_portable
> > code? Probably the people with the biggest itch (and the greatest
> > opportunity to test it) will be the VO on Windows users. Perhaps some of
> > them can develop it, and of course, we VO on Linux people will test
> > their code on Linux.
> >
> > Sound like a reasonable plan?
> >
> > SteveT
>
> I think I'll be the one to develop it. There is an intra-file linking
> plugin for vim that I'll take a look at. Hopefully I can get some ideas and
> make it cross-platform.
>
> Noel

I'll have more time after mid-september, and I'd love to test it, and also
document it.

SteveT


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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Peter Princz
In reply to this post by Stefan Schmiedl
Stefan,

On 04/09/06, Stefan Schmiedl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Peter Princz (04.09. 14:59):
>
> > in that case I'm fully equipped for linking outline files, because I
> > do have exuberant ctags installed on my PC and it works fine.
>
> You might want to take a look at my outline calendar, available
> on vimoutliner.org. Most of what I know about ctags and tag files
> I learned while creating the ctags file for calendar tagging.
>
> s.

thank you very much. I think I'm already using your calendar template
in my outline file, at least there was a url published long time ago
from where I could generate an outline file for a whole calendar year,
and IIRC it was maintained by You.

"...A pattern like this:
[_] 0% 2006.09.18 Mon
        [_] 0% Agenda
        [_] 0% Reactive
        [_] 0% Creative
..."

Back then I generated files for several years ahead. :)
I've checked Outline Calendar on vimoutliner.org, and it seems it's
the calendar generator written in Ruby packed there. I'll give it a
try when I run out of my pre-generated files from the website... :)

Btw, forgot the URL, is it still operational?

Have a nice day,
  Peter

--
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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Peter Princz
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
Steve,

On 04/09/06, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yeah, I didn't do anything about it either. Back in those days I didn't take
> VO on Windows seriously, but now that a lot of people are using it on
> Windows, a more OS independent method of interoutline linking might be
> preferable.
>
> If/when we implement it, we need to do so in a way that doesn't screw up
> traditional interoutline linking. I've been using Ctags interoutline linking
> since 2001.
>
> I'd suggest we have a config flag for linking_portable or linking_classic, and
> to start out with default it to linking_classic. As it proves itself able,
> (and this includes performance), switch the default to linking_portable. If,
> over a period of a year or 2 the portable method proves as good as or better
> than classic in every respect, we can then deprecate classic.
>
> Which leaves just one question -- who will develop the linking_portable code?
> Probably the people with the biggest itch (and the greatest opportunity to
> test it) will be the VO on Windows users. Perhaps some of them can develop
> it, and of course, we VO on Linux people will test their code on Linux.
>
> Sound like a reasonable plan?
>
> SteveT
>

it's maybe a stupid question, but what's wrong with ctags on Windows?
I do have it anyway for coding reasons.
It is you don't want to have yet another dependency to 3rd party tool?
Then we already have vimoutliner scriptified around in perl, python,
ruby, etc...

Or: do ctags's features differ on Windows and Linux?

I personally can't see any problem setting a requirement on installing
ctags to use outline linking...

Have a nice day,
  Peter

--
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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Steve Litt
On Wednesday 06 September 2006 09:30 am, Peter Princz wrote:

> Steve,
>
> On 04/09/06, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Yeah, I didn't do anything about it either. Back in those days I didn't
> > take VO on Windows seriously, but now that a lot of people are using it
> > on Windows, a more OS independent method of interoutline linking might be
> > preferable.
> >
> > If/when we implement it, we need to do so in a way that doesn't screw up
> > traditional interoutline linking. I've been using Ctags interoutline
> > linking since 2001.
> >
> > I'd suggest we have a config flag for linking_portable or
> > linking_classic, and to start out with default it to linking_classic. As
> > it proves itself able, (and this includes performance), switch the
> > default to linking_portable. If, over a period of a year or 2 the
> > portable method proves as good as or better than classic in every
> > respect, we can then deprecate classic.
> >
> > Which leaves just one question -- who will develop the linking_portable
> > code? Probably the people with the biggest itch (and the greatest
> > opportunity to test it) will be the VO on Windows users. Perhaps some of
> > them can develop it, and of course, we VO on Linux people will test their
> > code on Linux.
> >
> > Sound like a reasonable plan?
> >
> > SteveT
>
> it's maybe a stupid question, but what's wrong with ctags on Windows?
> I do have it anyway for coding reasons.
> It is you don't want to have yet another dependency to 3rd party tool?

Yes, I was thinking why use a 3rd party tool.

> Then we already have vimoutliner scriptified around in perl, python,
> ruby, etc...

That's a definite point. Is Exuberent Ctags free software?

There's a slight difference between Ctags and, let's say Python or Ruby. The
Python and Ruby scripts are addons that process an outline, they don't
implement basic features. AFAIK the only Perl script that implements a basic
feature is vo_maketags.pl, which helps implement interoutline linking. If a
pure Vim interoutline linking system could be implemented, and if that system
were compatible with the Ctags as far as what happens when you Ctrl+T or
Ctrl+N on a link, and if its performance is good, and if it doesn't clutter
up the Vim source code too badly, and if somebody can develop it, then the
basic VO no longer depends on either Perl or Ctags.

>
> Or: do ctags's features differ on Windows and Linux?

:-)  :-)  :-)  I have no idea! What I know about Ctags could fit on the head
of a pin, which is kind of funny considering I was the guy who developed
Ctags based interoutline linking for VO.

Until you mentioned it a few days ago, I had no idea Ctags existed for
Windows.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author:
   * Universal Troubleshooting Process courseware
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   * Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Peter Princz
On Wednesday 06 September 2006 06:30, Peter Princz wrote:

> thank you very much. I think I'm already using your calendar template
> in my outline file, at least there was a url published long time ago
> from where I could generate an outline file for a whole calendar year,
> and IIRC it was maintained by You.
>
> "...A pattern like this:
> [_] 0% 2006.09.18 Mon
> [_] 0% Agenda
> [_] 0% Reactive
> [_] 0% Creative
> ..."
>
> Back then I generated files for several years ahead. :)
> I've checked Outline Calendar on vimoutliner.org, and it seems it's
> the calendar generator written in Ruby packed there. I'll give it a
> try when I run out of my pre-generated files from the website... :)
>
> Btw, forgot the URL, is it still operational?
>
> Have a nice day,
>   Peter

My version of Outline Calendar on VO looks like this:
http://www.vimoutliner.org/files/noelcal.png

With Stefan's help I modified the scripts to like the two together. I use
it all the time.

Noel


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  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Steve Litt
On Wednesday 06 September 2006 01:14 pm, Noel Henson wrote:

> My version of Outline Calendar on VO looks like this:
> http://www.vimoutliner.org/files/noelcal.png
>
> With Stefan's help I modified the scripts to like the two together. I use
> it all the time.
>
> Noel
Hi Noel,

What do you use it for? In what ways do you use it? What "riffs" have you
developed to make it easier and more productive?

Thanks

SteveT
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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Stefan Schmiedl
In reply to this post by Peter Princz
Peter Princz (06.09. 15:30):

> Back then I generated files for several years ahead. :)

heh ... bad for return business :-)

> I've checked Outline Calendar on vimoutliner.org, and it seems it's
> the calendar generator written in Ruby packed there. I'll give it a
> try when I run out of my pre-generated files from the website... :)
>
> Btw, forgot the URL, is it still operational?

it's still the first item on vimoutliner.org, and the cgi script
is alive and kicking, I just checked.

s.
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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Peter Princz
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
Steve,

On 06/09/06, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Then we already have vimoutliner scriptified around in perl, python,
> > ruby, etc...
>
> That's a definite point. Is Exuberent Ctags free software?

Yes, it is. It's hosted on sourceforge and it's licensed under GPL,
source file either included (windows) or available as a separate
package.
See it here: http://ctags.sourceforge.net

>
> There's a slight difference between Ctags and, let's say Python or Ruby. The
> Python and Ruby scripts are addons that process an outline, they don't
> implement basic features.

Yes, only now I see your point, sorry. Yes, there is a difference
then. And yes, it would be better not to have any dependency on 3rd
party tools in basic functionalities. However, it wouldn't be fair to
demand something already existing to be reimplemented.

I found the integration of vim and ctags sufficient. There are even
icons in the gvim toolbar next to the hammer that stands for ":make"
for those preferring mouse. :)

However, ctags can be integrated with tools even tighter:
http://ctags.sourceforge.net/tool_support.html

Have a nice day,
  Peter

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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Peter Princz
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel,

On 06/09/06, Noel Henson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> My version of Outline Calendar on VO looks like this:
> http://www.vimoutliner.org/files/noelcal.png
>
> With Stefan's help I modified the scripts to like the two together. I use
> it all the time.
>
> Noel
>

I also have :Calendar and :CalendarH commands, can't recall how and
when added them. However, that opens a separate file for each calendar
day in ~/diary/yyyy/mm/dd.cal form. How do you keep the two calendars
I can see on the screenshot in synch? I use :Calendar for lookup only.

Have a nice day,
  Peter

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Re: Encrypted outline: was Obvious but don't get it: how do I move outline at N+1 to N

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Peter Princz
On Wednesday 06 September 2006 02:04 pm, Peter Princz wrote:

> Steve,
>
> On 06/09/06, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Then we already have vimoutliner scriptified around in perl, python,
> > > ruby, etc...
> >
> > That's a definite point. Is Exuberent Ctags free software?
>
> Yes, it is. It's hosted on sourceforge and it's licensed under GPL,
> source file either included (windows) or available as a separate
> package.
> See it here: http://ctags.sourceforge.net
>
> > There's a slight difference between Ctags and, let's say Python or Ruby.
> > The Python and Ruby scripts are addons that process an outline, they
> > don't implement basic features.
>
> Yes, only now I see your point, sorry. Yes, there is a difference
> then. And yes, it would be better not to have any dependency on 3rd
> party tools in basic functionalities. However, it wouldn't be fair to
> demand something already existing to be reimplemented.

I see your point now Peter. We already have working interoutline linking, so
we could put our valuable development time toward something else (cloning, if
it were ever possible).

Thanks

SteveT
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