Our posts are being flagged as spam.

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Our posts are being flagged as spam.

Erik Christiansen
Checking today why my latest post on the "Re: Gurus - does/can Vim have
a functionality resembling Info?" thread hadn't appeared here, I found it in
my spam folder. The cause is startling:

Message-ID: <20130216123314.GF2005@ratatosk>
...
X-SpamDetect: *********: 9.055555 IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0, IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, Aspam=5.1
X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups -post +https +subscribed
X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m639.msg

While looking in the spam folder, I found:

From: Tony Mechelynck <[hidden email]>
...
Subject: Re: Windows ALT characters
...
X-SpamDetect: ************: 12.700000 IronPort detected Spam=19.0, IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, From3consonants=0.7, Aspam=3.0
X-Aspam: Words 0.0 -because -received -visit -group -options -groups -post -https -subscribed
X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 yahoo.com google.com
X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m588.msg

and:

From: Ben Fritz <[hidden email]>
...
Subject: Re: ctags processing jumps to wrong tag?
...
X-SpamDetect: **********: 10.416555 Adult word cum=0.7, IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0, IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, From3consonants=0.7, Aspam=5.1
X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups -post +https +subscribed
X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m614.msg

But 99% of posts are not similarly mis-flagged (by google AFAICT).

Is this causing similar havoc elsewhere? False positives in spam
detection seem to totally negate the process's value. Is it google who I
have to try to complain to? (The guilty party isn't exactly nailing its
colours to the mast in the headers.)

Erik

--
In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than the soap,
and much more difficult to find."                  - Terry Pratchett

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RE: Our posts are being flagged as spam.

JohnBeckett
Erik Christiansen wrote:
> While looking in the spam folder, I found:
> ...
> But 99% of posts are not similarly mis-flagged

I have previously noticed that Google sometimes flags good mail
as spam when large quotes from an earlier message have not been
removed. I have often seen that (although not recently) when
Google moves a message to the "pending" queue of messages which
need manager approval to be delivered to the list. That queue
is intended for new members (who are banned if their post is
spam), but it also holds messages from regular members if Google
thinks the message "may be spam".

My preference would be for nearly all replies to have
unnecessary quotebacks removed, and that would solve the major
problem. There is no way we could influence Google's spam
detection features, so it's something to be fixed either by the
sender, or by a receiver somehow whitelisting the sender.

John

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Re: Our posts are being flagged as spam.

John Little-4
In reply to this post by Erik Christiansen
Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn't see any headers like you report.  Why would you complain to Google?  Are they your mail provider?

Regards, John Little

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Re: Our posts are being flagged as spam.

Erik Christiansen
On 16.02.13 20:02, John Little wrote:
> Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn't see any
> headers like you report.
> Why would you complain to Google?

Please examine the footer from your own post:

> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "vim_use" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
> receiving emails from it, send an email to
> [hidden email]. For more options, visit
> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>

> Are they your mail provider?

No. The footer and the headers in the misclassified posts suggest to me
that they are spuriously spam-labelling our list mail. Perhaps there is
so much spam out there that incredibly stupid filtering, such as
classifying google's own footer as spam, is worth the biscuit:

X-SpamDetect: *********: 9.055555 IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0,
IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, Aspam=5.1
X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups
-post +https +subscribed
X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m639.msg

While classifying a list post as spam because it contains the words
"because, received, and subscribed", seems in itself entirely
dysfunctional, it escalates to perversity when they have themselves
inserted the text at which they take offence. Is Google totally nuts?

Can our list admins fix the footer, to avoid google's landmines?

Erik

--
A computer is like an air conditioner, it works poorly when you open Windows.

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Re: Our posts are being flagged as spam.

stosss
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Erik Christiansen
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16.02.13 20:02, John Little wrote:
>> Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn't see any
>> headers like you report.
>> Why would you complain to Google?
>
> Please examine the footer from your own post:
>
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "vim_use" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
>> receiving emails from it, send an email to
>> [hidden email]. For more options, visit
>> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>
>> Are they your mail provider?
>
> No. The footer and the headers in the misclassified posts suggest to me
> that they are spuriously spam-labelling our list mail. Perhaps there is
> so much spam out there that incredibly stupid filtering, such as
> classifying google's own footer as spam, is worth the biscuit:
>
> X-SpamDetect: *********: 9.055555 IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0,
> IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, Aspam=5.1
> X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups
> -post +https +subscribed
> X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
> X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m639.msg
>
> While classifying a list post as spam because it contains the words
> "because, received, and subscribed", seems in itself entirely
> dysfunctional, it escalates to perversity when they have themselves
> inserted the text at which they take offence. Is Google totally nuts?
>
> Can our list admins fix the footer, to avoid google's landmines?
>
> Erik
>
> --
> A computer is like an air conditioner, it works poorly when you open Windows.
>
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>

Something else is going on somewhere. I use gmail and I don't have any
problems getting mail from this list. If Google thinks something is
spam and I have set a filter so it puts the mail where I want it and
not in the spam folder Google complains saying this should be spam but
you have set filters to keep it out of spam. I don't get that annoying
message with this list. There are a few other list that I do get it
but I just ignore it. I also check my spam folder and trash folder
regularly and tell Google it screwed up when it does which is not very
often.

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Re: Our posts are being flagged as spam.

Benjamin R. Haskell-8
In reply to this post by Erik Christiansen
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 16.02.13 20:02, John Little wrote:
>> Just had a quick look in my gmail spam folder, and didn't see any
>> headers like you report.
>> Why would you complain to Google?
>
> Please examine the footer from your own post:
>
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "vim_use" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
>> receiving emails from it, send an email to
>> [hidden email]. For more options, visit
>> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>
>> Are they your mail provider?
>
> No. The footer and the headers in the misclassified posts suggest to
> me that they are spuriously spam-labelling our list mail.

Google has nothing to do with the spam headers you're showing us.
[hidden email] is an alias to [hidden email].  The vim-use
list is a Google Group.


> Perhaps there is so much spam out there that incredibly stupid
> filtering, such as classifying google's own footer as spam, is worth
> the biscuit:
>
> X-SpamDetect: *********: 9.055555 IronPort detected Suspected Spam=14.0,
> IronPort SPAM scanned=-10.0, Aspam=5.1
> X-Aspam: Words 2.1 +because +received +visit +group +options +groups
> -post +https +subscribed
> X-Aspam: URLS scored 3.0 google.com
> X-Aspam: Best match was sample aspam_catch\m639.msg
>
> While classifying a list post as spam because it contains the words
> "because, received, and subscribed", seems in itself entirely
> dysfunctional, it escalates to perversity when they have themselves
> inserted the text at which they take offence. Is Google totally nuts?

Speaking of totally nuts... My favorite example from your prior email
was:

> From: Ben Fritz <[hidden email]>
> ...
> Subject: Re: ctags processing jumps to wrong tag?
> ...
> X-SpamDetect: **********: 10.416555 Adult word cum=0.7, [...]

Really?  Tagging the "Adult word cum"?  The email contained the word "document".


> Can our list admins fix the footer, to avoid google's landmines?

No.  This is a problem with your ISP.  Just whitelist whatever address
you need to whitelist (probably: [hidden email]).  You'll get
occasional spam emails, but Google Groups is pretty good about not
letting much through.  (But that might also be because mine's then
filtered through Gmail's spam detection.)

--
Best,
Ben

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Re: Our posts are being flagged as spam.

Erik Christiansen
In reply to this post by JohnBeckett
On 17.02.13 15:00, John Beckett wrote:
> I have previously noticed that Google sometimes flags good mail
> as spam when large quotes from an earlier message have not been
> removed.

The additional problem is noted, but that is not the case here.
The last post on this page:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/vim_use/TyyDYT1toNc

shows that it quotes only three lines.

The words listed by the spam-catching software as triggers are not in
the submitted post. The triggers have been added by the list server,
which might be any of several private IPs which handled the post after
it arrived at gmr-mx.google.com. Their own crap is then misclassified as
spam, by mail-pb0-f58.google.com ([209.85.160.58]).

Erik

--
Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic          
and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?"                  
                                                              - A. P. J.

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OK, it is the ISP. [Was: Our posts are being flagged as spam.]

Erik Christiansen
In reply to this post by Benjamin R. Haskell-8
On 17.02.13 01:19, Benjamin R. Haskell wrote:
> Speaking of totally nuts... My favorite example from your prior email was:
>
> >From: Ben Fritz <[hidden email]>
> >...
> >Subject: Re: ctags processing jumps to wrong tag?
> >...
> >X-SpamDetect: **********: 10.416555 Adult word cum=0.7, [...]
>
> Really?  Tagging the "Adult word cum"?  The email contained the word "document".

It looks like political correctness of Microsoftian proportions.

> >Can our list admins fix the footer, to avoid google's landmines?
>
> No.  This is a problem with your ISP.

You are right. I misread the headers. It is the ISP.

> whitelist whatever address you need to whitelist (probably:
> [hidden email]).  You'll get occasional spam emails, but
> Google Groups is pretty good about not letting much through.  (But
> that might also be because mine's then filtered through Gmail's spam
> detection.)

No, you're right. After having a go at the ISP over the
"document" BS, it'd be logical to just whitelist vim_use.

Erik

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Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.
                                                           -- Walt Kelly

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Re: Our posts are being flagged as spam.

Tony Mechelynck
In reply to this post by stosss
On 17/02/13 07:13, stosss wrote:
[...]

> Something else is going on somewhere. I use gmail and I don't have any
> problems getting mail from this list. If Google thinks something is
> spam and I have set a filter so it puts the mail where I want it and
> not in the spam folder Google complains saying this should be spam but
> you have set filters to keep it out of spam. I don't get that annoying
> message with this list. There are a few other list that I do get it
> but I just ignore it. I also check my spam folder and trash folder
> regularly and tell Google it screwed up when it does which is not very
> often.
>
I think the latter is important. I do the same (i.e., click the "Report
as spam" button in the Gmail webmail Trash folder and the "Not Spam"
button in its Spam folder, as appropriate, after selecting the false
negative or the false positive respectively) and IIUC it "teaches" Gmail
what I regard as spam and as nonspam. As a result, the Gmail filters
associated with my account get progressively better -though never
perfect- and the false positives and false negatives become
progressively rarer -though never totally absent- as time goes on.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
"Tom Hayden is the kind of politician who gives opportunism a bad
name."
                -- Gore Vidal

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