Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
92 messages Options
12345
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Noel Henson
I, like many of you, have been struggling with our primitive checkboxes
implementation. One big shortcomming is that a task item (childless) can
only be marked 100%, done, or 0%, not done. The only way around this is to
create children for that item and mark them done or undone. I end up with
this scenario quite often

[_] 25% Tasks
        [_] 50% task
                [X] 100% started
                [_] 0% completed
        [_] 0% task
                [_] 0% started
                [_] 0% completed

I've been experimenting with different methods to show that an item has
been acted upon but is not complete. Perhaps this might work. What do you
think of adding a 'half-checked' symbol that would count for 50%? Something
like a [+] or [x]? Then I could use:

[_] 25% Tasks
        [x] 50% task
        [_] 0% task

The half-check would only apply to items that are childless.

Thoughts?


Noel
--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Ben Armstrong
On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 07:30 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> [_] 25% Tasks
> [x] 50% task
> [_] 0% task
>
> The half-check would only apply to items that are childless.

This would be fine for items where only a rough idea of percentage is
possible.  What about tasks where an exact number is already known?  How
about modifying that "x" to indicate a user-specified percentage (with
50% being the default).  Thus:

[_] 33% Tasks
        [x] 66% task
        [_] 0% task

Then perhaps four comma-comma sequences to increment/decrement the
user-specified percentage.  One pair of coarse increment/decrement (10%
at a time) and one pair of fine increment/decrement (1% at a time).

Alternatively, just support manually updating the percentage figure for
"x" items.  (Unfortunately, vim's ^A/^X to increment/decrement the
number under the cursor is terribly awkward, not to mention not playing
well with ^A being used as screen's default meta-character).

Ben
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Tuesday 27 September 2005 10:30 am, Noel Henson wrote:

> I, like many of you, have been struggling with our primitive checkboxes
> implementation. One big shortcomming is that a task item (childless) can
> only be marked 100%, done, or 0%, not done. The only way around this is to
> create children for that item and mark them done or undone. I end up with
> this scenario quite often
>
> [_] 25% Tasks
> [_] 50% task
> [X] 100% started
> [_] 0% completed
> [_] 0% task
> [_] 0% started
> [_] 0% completed
>
> I've been experimenting with different methods to show that an item has
> been acted upon but is not complete. Perhaps this might work. What do you
> think of adding a 'half-checked' symbol that would count for 50%? Something
> like a [+] or [x]? Then I could use:
>
> [_] 25% Tasks
> [x] 50% task
> [_] 0% task
>
> The half-check would only apply to items that are childless.
>
> Thoughts?

Hi Noel,

Please, please, PLEASE use something besides lower case x to represent half
done. It's too easy to confuse lower and upper case X. The letter H or h
comes to mind as an alternative.

You're scratching an itch I don't have. To me, percentages are just rough
anyway. I mean really, how could you intelligently determine an exact
percentage of task completion. You don't strike me as a wing-tipped golf
course kinda guy.

If you REALLY must give a percentile completion to a leaf, why not
strategically give it children, some of which would have been completed?

I know this is an itch of yours so it will get done. All I ask is that, in
doing it, you do not dilute the ABSOLUTELY PERFECT way current checkboxes
work.

Thanks

SteveT

>
>
> Noel

--
Steve Litt
Founder and acting president: GoLUG
http://www.golug.org
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong
Hi Ben,

As you read my comments, please remember that they're one man's opinion, and
in fact they're the opinion of a man that once upon a time felt he didn't
need and wouldn't use checkboxes :-)

On Tuesday 27 September 2005 11:01 am, BG - Ben Armstrong wrote:

> On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 07:30 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> > [_] 25% Tasks
> > [x] 50% task
> > [_] 0% task
> >
> > The half-check would only apply to items that are childless.
>
> This would be fine for items where only a rough idea of percentage is
> possible.  What about tasks where an exact number is already known?  How
> about modifying that "x" to indicate a user-specified percentage (with
> 50% being the default).  Thus:
>
> [_] 33% Tasks
> [x] 66% task
> [_] 0% task
>
> Then perhaps four comma-comma sequences to increment/decrement the
> user-specified percentage.  One pair of coarse increment/decrement (10%
> at a time) and one pair of fine increment/decrement (1% at a time).

Ughh! This sounds like a nightmare to me. First, the idea of assigning an
exact percentage to a leaf node is, in my opinion, inaccurate and misleading.
I don't think this feature would be nearly handy enough to justify the added
code complexity and possible bug intrusion. As a matter of fact, from a
business standpoint, I think that having the ability to set an exact
percentage could lull one into a false sense of security.

To me, if a task is big/important enough to calculate percentages, it should
have child tasks.

> Alternatively, just support manually updating the percentage figure for
> "x" items.  (Unfortunately, vim's ^A/^X to increment/decrement the
> number under the cursor is terribly awkward, not to mention not playing
> well with ^A being used as screen's default meta-character).

Once again, IMHO too much code for too little benefit (and maybe even some
harm).

Can someone give me an example where a childless headline should have a
non-binary completion percentage, rather than spawning child tasks?

SteveT

Steve Litt
Founder and acting president: GoLUG
http://www.golug.org
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Ben Armstrong
On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 12:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> Can someone give me an example where a childless headline should have a
> non-binary completion percentage, rather than spawning child tasks?

Any time you have countable/measurable equivalent things that take
roughly the same amount of time to process, percentage is a good
indicator of progress.

I have a book to read.  It has a fixed number of pages.  The exact
percentage done can be computed at any given time by dividing the
current page# I am on by the last page# (assuming page numbering
beginning at 1).

I have a stack of papers to process.  It has a measurable physical
height.  Each item on the stack takes about as long to process as the
next.  The percentage done can be computed as the current height divided
by the initial height.

I have a directory full of data to convert from one format to another.
The process is semi-automated, but some manual "massaging" of the data
is necessary before each file is ready to be used.  Each file takes
roughly the same time to convert as the next.

Ben
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Matej Cepl-2
BG - Ben Armstrong wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 12:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
>> Can someone give me an example where a childless headline should have a
>> non-binary completion percentage, rather than spawning child tasks?
>
> Any time you have countable/measurable equivalent things that take
> roughly the same amount of time to process, percentage is a good
> indicator of progress.

Can we make a half-way compromise -- VO would never touch percentage when
the checkbox is 'h' (or 'm' -- looks kind of half filling the space to me;
'x' is probably really too easy to be confused with 'X'). Then Ben could do
with checkboxes whatever he wants (maybe using some user-defined macros)
and the rest of you could use VO as they are used to (and I will have to
try to reimplement it into KJS -- still not working, but proof of concept
is done!).

Best,

Matej

--
Matej Cepl, http://www.ceplovi.cz/matej/blog/
GPG Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB  25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC
 
As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for
Socialism is its adherents.
    -- George Orwell


_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Tuesday 27 September 2005 09:35 am, Steve Litt wrote:
> Please, please, PLEASE use something besides lower case x to represent
> half done. It's too easy to confuse lower and upper case X. The letter H
> or h comes to mind as an alternative.

I hear you. I kinda like the [+].

>
> You're scratching an itch I don't have. To me, percentages are just
> rough anyway. I mean really, how could you intelligently determine an
> exact percentage of task completion. You don't strike me as a
> wing-tipped golf course kinda guy.
>
> If you REALLY must give a percentile completion to a leaf, why not
> strategically give it children, some of which would have been completed?

Percentages are meant to be rough. I just like to keep track of what I've
started as well. Like I showed, I have children named "started" and
"completed".

>
> I know this is an itch of yours so it will get done. All I ask is that,
> in doing it, you do not dilute the ABSOLUTELY PERFECT way current
> checkboxes work.

It is not for sure that I'll change anything. I'm just trying to be add
a little efficiency.

In my experience, trying to put percentages on individual tasks that are
not broken down is almost always wasted effort. Two metaphors come to mind,
"the job's not done until the paperwork is finished" and "the last 10% of
any job takes just as long as the first 90%". The latter is especially true
because it supports another little nugget of truth: "A well-planned job
takes twice the amount of expected time (or effort) to complete.  
A poorly-planned job takes three times as long."

Anyway, it's just something I'm tinkering with. Just as I am with
outline-aware math. I'm still just messing with it because I can't come up
with a nice, smooth way to integrate it into VO.

Noel


--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.


_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Stefan Schmiedl
Noel Henson (27.09. 12:28):

> On Tuesday 27 September 2005 09:35 am, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Please, please, PLEASE use something besides lower case x to represent
> > half done. It's too easy to confuse lower and upper case X. The letter H
> > or h comes to mind as an alternative.
>
> I hear you. I kinda like the [+].

Still too similar to [X] ... about the same amount of color
and a crossed shape. How about the "progression" [_] [o] [X] ?

>
> Percentages are meant to be rough. I just like to keep track of what I've
> started as well. Like I showed, I have children named "started" and
> "completed".

I've stopped using them. Since they currently assume that every outlined
item is about the same "weight", they are more often misleading than
not. About the same league as the "remaining time" when copying files
on a windows box ...

>
> Anyway, it's just something I'm tinkering with. Just as I am with
> outline-aware math. I'm still just messing with it because I can't come up
> with a nice, smooth way to integrate it into VO.

Don't. If you can't think of a natural way to integrate it, then
don't integrate it at all. It wants to stay separate. You can
"recommend" as I did with the calendar: If you use this and that
format, then those scripts will work.

But it's nothing that the *outliner* needs to or even should be aware of.

Your Knight who says YAGNI,
s.
--
Stefan Schmiedl
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
|Approximity GmbH               | EDV-Beratung Schmiedl                  |
|http://www.approximity.com     | Am Bräuweiher 4, 93499 Zandt, Germany  |
|mailto:[hidden email]  | Tel. (09944) 3068-98, Fax -97          |
+-------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Noel Henson
On Tuesday 27 September 2005 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > I hear you. I kinda like the [+].
>
> Still too similar to [X] ... about the same amount of color
> and a crossed shape. How about the "progression" [_] [o] [X] ?

I would still prefer the [+]. In all my years, I can't remember getting
+ and X confused. If I start to, I'm either senile or I need new glasses.  
But [o] could work.

>
> > Percentages are meant to be rough. I just like to keep track of what
> > I've started as well. Like I showed, I have children named "started"
> > and "completed".
>
> I've stopped using them. Since they currently assume that every outlined
> item is about the same "weight", they are more often misleading than
> not. About the same league as the "remaining time" when copying files
> on a windows box ...

I still use them becuase it gives me an idea of what percentage of tasks
I've completed. Know of course that there is no real relation between
a task and it's percentage of a project.

>
> > Anyway, it's just something I'm tinkering with. Just as I am with
> > outline-aware math. I'm still just messing with it because I can't
> > come up with a nice, smooth way to integrate it into VO.
>
> Don't. If you can't think of a natural way to integrate it, then
> don't integrate it at all. It wants to stay separate. You can
> "recommend" as I did with the calendar: If you use this and that
> format, then those scripts will work.

That's been my approach. Although there are a great number of times I'd
like to have some of the features of Ecco: an outline that has columns.

Noel

--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Stefan Schmiedl
Noel Henson (27.09. 14:14):

> On Tuesday 27 September 2005 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > > I hear you. I kinda like the [+].
> >
> > Still too similar to [X] ... about the same amount of color
> > and a crossed shape. How about the "progression" [_] [o] [X] ?
>
> I would still prefer the [+]. In all my years, I can't remember getting
> + and X confused. If I start to, I'm either senile or I need new glasses.  
> But [o] could work.

yes, yes, and yes. :-)

s.
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Tuesday 27 September 2005 05:14 pm, Noel Henson wrote:
> On Tuesday 27 September 2005 01:03 pm, you wrote:
> > > I hear you. I kinda like the [+].
> >
> > Still too similar to [X] ... about the same amount of color
> > and a crossed shape. How about the "progression" [_] [o] [X] ?
>
> I would still prefer the [+]. In all my years, I can't remember getting
> + and X confused. If I start to, I'm either senile or I need new glasses.
> But [o] could work.

Howbout [_], [q], [h], [t], [X]? They don't need to all be implemented at
once, but it gives you the ability to go quarters. Or [_], [1], [2], [3],
[4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [X]

<disclaimer>These suggestions should not necessarily be construed to mean that
I support completion percentages on leaf headlines</disclaimer>

Steve Litt
Founder and acting president: GoLUG
http://www.golug.org
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Ben Armstrong
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 12:28 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
Percentages are meant to be rough. I just like to keep track of what I've 
started as well. Like I showed, I have children named "started" and 
"completed".
They'll be teased all their life in the schoolyard for that, you know ...

But seriously, I agree that percentages should be rough.  I was overboard with fine/coarse increments/decrements suggestion.  Still, for long-term progress indicators on repetitive homogenous tasks, I am not ready to give up on the search for something better than "started" and "completed".  I find myself today looking at just such a task, processing a buildup of 25 unprocessed emails in Inbox (yes, a failure of my GTD processes, I know,) each one of which I know from experience will take between 5 and 20 minutes to deal with.  It would be entirely redundant to list each one as a child of my "Eliminate Inbox backlog" task.

This seems a bit tedious:

[_] %25 Eliminate Inbox backlog
    [X] Started
    [_] Half
    [_] Most
    [_] Completed

But this would be OK:

[_] %0 Eliminate Inbox backlog
...
[s] %25 Eliminate Inbox backlog
...
[h] %50 Eliminate Inbox backlog
...
[m] %75 Eliminate Inbox backlog
...
[X] %100 Eliminate Inbox backlog

In my experience, trying to put percentages on individual tasks that are 
not broken down is almost always wasted effort. Two metaphors come to mind, 
"the job's not done until the paperwork is finished" and "the last 10% of 
any job takes just as long as the first 90%". The latter is especially true 
because it supports another little nugget of truth: "A well-planned job 
takes twice the amount of expected time (or effort) to complete.  
A poorly-planned job takes three times as long."

This is true only for heterogenous tasks.  But for repetitive, homogenous tasks, any sort of breakdown into smaller pieces is going to be entirely arbitrary, and in my mind, not worth doing.  If these tasks take a long time to finish, a progress indicator finer than just "started" & "completed" is a nice thing to have.

Ben


_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Wednesday 28 September 2005 04:16 am, Steve Litt wrote:
>
> Howbout [_], [q], [h], [t], [X]? They don't need to all be implemented
> at once, but it gives you the ability to go quarters. Or [_], [1], [2],
> [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [X]
>

I would prefer to go with numbers over letters. It a bit more
multi-lingual. The problem there is that many will find it difficult to
switch to thinking in 'fifths' as opposed to 'fourths' (of a task
completed).

I'm beginning to think I've opened up a can of worms. I was just trying to
make a kind of check box that shows I've started something but not yet
completed it.

Noel

--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong
On Wednesday 28 September 2005 08:02 am, BG - Ben Armstrong wrote:

> On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 12:28 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> > Percentages are meant to be rough. I just like to keep track of what I've
> > started as well. Like I showed, I have children named "started" and
> > "completed".
>
> They'll be teased all their life in the schoolyard for that, you
> know ...
>
> But seriously, I agree that percentages should be rough.  I was
> overboard with fine/coarse increments/decrements suggestion.  Still, for
> long-term progress indicators on repetitive homogenous tasks, I am not
> ready to give up on the search for something better than "started" and
> "completed".  I find myself today looking at just such a task,
> processing a buildup of 25 unprocessed emails in Inbox (yes, a failure
> of my GTD processes, I know,) each one of which I know from experience
> will take between 5 and 20 minutes to deal with.  It would be entirely
> redundant to list each one as a child of my "Eliminate Inbox backlog"
> task.
>
> This seems a bit tedious:
>
> [_] %25 Eliminate Inbox backlog
>     [X] Started
>     [_] Half
>     [_] Most
>     [_] Completed
>
> But this would be OK:
>
> [_] %0 Eliminate Inbox backlog
> ...
> [s] %25 Eliminate Inbox backlog
> ...
> [h] %50 Eliminate Inbox backlog
> ...
> [m] %75 Eliminate Inbox backlog
> ...
> [X] %100 Eliminate Inbox backlog

Or this, always assuming you subscribe to my "do the easy ones first"
philosophy (http://www.troubleshooters.com/tpromag/200008/200008.htm):

[_] %33 Eliminate Inbox backlog
        [X] Toss junkmail
        [X] Toss or segregate magazines
        [_] Segregate known bills
        [_] Read and file letters/proposals
        [_] Pay bills
        [_] Write responses where necessary

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Founder and acting president: GoLUG
http://www.golug.org
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong
On Wednesday 28 September 2005 05:02 am, BG - Ben Armstrong wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 12:28 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> > Percentages are meant to be rough. I just like to keep track of what
> > I've started as well. Like I showed, I have children named "started"
> > and "completed".
>
> They'll be teased all their life in the schoolyard for that, you
> know ...

My wife vetoed 'Spike'.

>
> But seriously, I agree that percentages should be rough.  I was
> overboard with fine/coarse increments/decrements suggestion.  Still, for
> long-term progress indicators on repetitive homogenous tasks, I am not
> ready to give up on the search for something better than "started" and
> "completed".  I find myself today looking at just such a task,
> processing a buildup of 25 unprocessed emails in Inbox (yes, a failure
> of my GTD processes, I know,) each one of which I know from experience
> will take between 5 and 20 minutes to deal with.  It would be entirely
> redundant to list each one as a child of my "Eliminate Inbox backlog"
> task.
>

In reviewing this again, perhaps percentages are useful in some outlines
(or sections of outline) and not in others. I was thinking that maybe
a percentage is not what is needed. Perhaps a fraction would better serve.  
Even though this doesn't address my initial laziness problem, wanting to
mark something as 'started', perhaps this is a better solution:

[_] (3/5) Project
        [_] (2/3) task
                [X] (1/1) subtask
                [X] (1/1) subtask
                [_] (0/1) subtask
        [_] (1/2) task
                [X] (1/1) subtask
                [_] (0/1) subtask

I would really have to think about how this impacts the completeness
calculations before implementing it, but... What do you think?

Noel



--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Ben Armstrong
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 09:47 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
Or this, always assuming you subscribe to my "do the easy ones first" 
philosophy (http://www.troubleshooters.com/tpromag/200008/200008.htm):

I have already done that.  What remains are the >5 minute ones, every single one of which are in the category of "extract from this conversation the bits of it that are actionable things to integrate into the Task documents for the projects to which email belongs".  I don't know how to further break that down into different *kinds* of email to process (or even if it is worth my time to do that kind of analysis on a conscious level -- subconsciously, yes, I try to choose the ones that are easiest to do first, but it's all very much in the area of iffy guesswork).

Ben


_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Ben Armstrong
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 06:54 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> My wife vetoed 'Spike'.

Too bad.  I'd have thought that choice would command considerable
respect.  (Would you want to mess with someone named "Spike" in the
schoolyard?)

> In reviewing this again, perhaps percentages are useful in some outlines
> (or sections of outline) and not in others. I was thinking that maybe
> a percentage is not what is needed. Perhaps a fraction would better serve.  
> Even though this doesn't address my initial laziness problem, wanting to
> mark something as 'started', perhaps this is a better solution:
>
> [_] (3/5) Project
> [_] (2/3) task
> [X] (1/1) subtask
> [X] (1/1) subtask
> [_] (0/1) subtask
> [_] (1/2) task
> [X] (1/1) subtask
> [_] (0/1) subtask
>
> I would really have to think about how this impacts the completeness
> calculations before implementing it, but... What do you think?

Alternate visual representation:

[XXX__] Project
        [XX_] task
                [X] subtask
                [X] subtask
                [_] subtask
        [X_] task
                [X] subtask
                [X] subtask

Or would the "raggedness" of such "progress bar" checkboxes be too ugly?

Also, what marker would replace "%" for VO to know to update the
percentages for that item?  Maybe a different checkbox style?

(XXX__) Project
... etc.


Ben
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Wednesday 28 September 2005 09:54 am, Noel Henson wrote:

> On Wednesday 28 September 2005 05:02 am, BG - Ben Armstrong wrote:
> > On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 12:28 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> > > Percentages are meant to be rough. I just like to keep track of what
> > > I've started as well. Like I showed, I have children named "started"
> > > and "completed".
> >
> > They'll be teased all their life in the schoolyard for that, you
> > know ...
>
> My wife vetoed 'Spike'.

What's the problem? My daughter's named Spike, and she likes it just fine.

SteveT
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong
On Wednesday 28 September 2005 10:02 am, BG - Ben Armstrong wrote:

> On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 09:47 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Or this, always assuming you subscribe to my "do the easy ones first"
> > philosophy (http://www.troubleshooters.com/tpromag/200008/200008.htm):
>
> I have already done that.  What remains are the >5 minute ones, every
> single one of which are in the category of "extract from this
> conversation the bits of it that are actionable things to integrate into
> the Task documents for the projects to which email belongs".  I don't
> know how to further break that down into different *kinds* of email to
> process (or even if it is worth my time to do that kind of analysis on a
> conscious level -- subconsciously, yes, I try to choose the ones that
> are easiest to do first, but it's all very much in the area of iffy
> guesswork).
>
> Ben

I think I see what you mean. You have so much tiny stuff containing important
nuggests, that if you planned at a lower level you'd spend more time planning
than doing. You need to put your head down and bulldoze through it. Yet you'd
still like to have a gas gauge telling you how close to done you are, because
the sum of all these trivial items is, itself, anything but trivial.

In such a case, IMHO you need a VERY quick way of updating your completion.
Perhaps a very fast commacomma command to increment [_], [1], [2], [3],
[4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [X]. After all, if you had time to perform a
time consuming recording of progress, you'd have time to break it down
further.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Founder and acting president: GoLUG
http://www.golug.org
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Possbile enhancement to checkboxes

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Ben Armstrong
On Wednesday 28 September 2005 07:02 am, BG - Ben Armstrong wrote:
> I have already done that.  What remains are the >5 minute ones, every
> single one of which are in the category of "extract from this
> conversation the bits of it that are actionable things to integrate into
> the Task documents for the projects to which email belongs".  I don't
> know how to further break that down into different *kinds* of email to
> process (or even if it is worth my time to do that kind of analysis on a
> conscious level -- subconsciously, yes, I try to choose the ones that
> are easiest to do first, but it's all very much in the area of iffy
> guesswork).

Ben,

You bring up some good points. The first is extraction of action items or
other information that needs to be put into an outline from an email or
other document. Believe it or not, I'm working on that. A long time ago (20
years, I think, MaxThink introduced the idea of smart splitting and
joining. One of my favorites was to split paragraphs into a list of
headings. Each heading was one complete sentence from the paragraph. I used
to use this to extract 'to do' items and feature requests from RFQs and
POs. After the split, it was easy to delete the impertenant and reformat
the rest. I am actually working on features like this for the next release
of VO. In honer of MaxThink, this will be a 'Brainstorming' add-on.

The second point you bring up is email processing. I usually scan each
message and either deal with it (GTD: <5min) or put it into a special 'To
Do' folder. Then I deal with them later. (GTD: at a scheduled time during
the day, usually immediately after taking a break from work).

Noel

--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner
12345