Quick Look

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Quick Look

truggl

Hi everybody,

I just discovered MacVim (after using Vim for a couple of months)--
great job, I love it!

I figured out that you can use Quick Look from Vim (using :! to
execute a command): it has a Terminal command (http://www.tuaw.com/
2007/11/05/terminal-tip-use-quick-look-from-the-leopard-command-
line/).

Dunno if this might be useful, but it might be an interesting feature
("hey! look! press <KEY-COMBO> and something cool happens!" :)

~truggl
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Re: Quick Look

Mark Wilden

On Apr 15, 2008, at 5:08 PM, truggl wrote:
> I just discovered MacVim (after using Vim for a couple of months)--
> great job, I love it!

I went the other way. Vim doesn't have some of the features (or any of  
the fine support) that MacVim has, but when I couldn't use the Monaco  
font aliased at 10 pt, and when I saw how slow it is to cursor up and  
down, I went with Vim.

Horses for courses.

///ark

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Re: Quick Look

Nico Weber-3

> I went the other way. Vim doesn't have some of the features (or any of
> the fine support) that MacVim has, but when I couldn't use the Monaco
> font aliased at 10 pt

Edit->Show fonts->Choose Monaco, 10 point. It shows up as aliased  
automatically. You can't use Monaco 10 point antialiased, though  
(perhaps that's what you wanted to say).

>
Nico

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Re: Quick Look

Mark Wilden

On Apr 16, 2008, at 4:32 AM, Nico Weber wrote:

> Edit->Show fonts->Choose Monaco, 10 point. It shows up as aliased
> automatically. You can't use Monaco 10 point antialiased, though
> (perhaps that's what you wanted to say).

Yes, that's what I wanted to say. :) On Vim, Monaco 10 pt antialiased  
works fine.

I could've lived with that, until I pressed j and watched the cursor  
practically creep down the page - and worse than that, keep going  
after I released the key. No offense, but how can you guys live with  
that? Or is it just me?

///ark

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Re: Quick Look

Nico Weber-3

> Yes, that's what I wanted to say. :) On Vim, Monaco 10 pt antialiased
> works fine.

That's because the Cocoa API MacVim uses doesn't antialias Monaco 10  
pt even if we tell it to. That's probably because Monaco is a pixel  
font and was designed to be displayed aliased, so Cocoa probably just  
wants to protect us from ourselves ;-)

> I could've lived with that, until I pressed j and watched the cursor
> practically creep down the page - and worse than that, keep going
> after I released the key. No offense, but how can you guys live with
> that? Or is it just me?

Depends on your definition of "to creep". If I keep j pressed, the  
cursor moves about 44 lines a second (and it looks as if that was key-
repeat-rate limited). While MacVim is not quite as fast as, e.g., vim-
cocoa, it's by far fast enough to be usable over here. (Besides, I  
usually move the cursor with <C-f>, <C-b>, /, {, } etc)

What file types are you editing? Do you get a noticable speed increase  
when you do `:syntax off`? But if the same files are fast in regular  
vim, this is probably not due to a broken syntax file.

Do you use MacVim horizontally maximized? That's a bit slow over here  
(but still usable).

Nico

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Re: Quick Look

Andrew Stewart


On 16 Apr 2008, at 15:53, Nico Weber wrote:

>> Yes, that's what I wanted to say. :) On Vim, Monaco 10 pt antialiased
>> works fine.
>
> That's because the Cocoa API MacVim uses doesn't antialias Monaco 10
> pt even if we tell it to. That's probably because Monaco is a pixel
> font and was designed to be displayed aliased, so Cocoa probably just
> wants to protect us from ourselves ;-)

I used to use Monaco, but after a year or two I switched to  
Inconsolata.  Maybe worth seeing if MacVim could render that in a way  
you like?

http://www.levien.com/type/myfonts/inconsolata.html

Regards,
Andy Stewart

-------
AirBlade Software
http://airbladesoftware.com





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Re: Quick Look

Mark Wilden
In reply to this post by Nico Weber-3


On Apr 16, 2008, at 7:53 AM, Nico Weber wrote:

>
>> Yes, that's what I wanted to say. :) On Vim, Monaco 10 pt antialiased
>> works fine.
>
> That's because the Cocoa API MacVim uses doesn't antialias Monaco 10
> pt even if we tell it to. That's probably because Monaco is a pixel
> font and was designed to be displayed aliased, so Cocoa probably just
> wants to protect us from ourselves ;-)
>

Oh, sure. I'm not blaming anybody. I just found it annoying, though  
not annoying enough to stop using MacVim.


> What file types are you editing? Do you get a noticable speed increase
> when you do `:syntax off`? But if the same files are fast in regular
> vim, this is probably not due to a broken syntax file.
>
> Do you use MacVim horizontally maximized? That's a bit slow over here
> (but still usable).

>> I could've lived with that, until I pressed j and watched the cursor
>> practically creep down the page - and worse than that, keep going
>> after I released the key. No offense, but how can you guys live with
>> that? Or is it just me?
>
> Depends on your definition of "to creep". If I keep j pressed, the
> cursor moves about 44 lines a second (and it looks as if that was key-
> repeat-rate limited). While MacVim is not quite as fast as, e.g., vim-
> cocoa, it's by far fast enough to be usable over here. (Besides, I
> usually move the cursor with <C-f>, <C-b>, /, {, } etc)

Sure - the philosophy of vi is that you don't scroll around aimlessly.  
I didn't notice it for a couple of days.

Yes, I do have :syntax on, and I don't maximize horizontally. I edit  
primarily Ruby files, and they're probably too long (tests, sometimes  
in the hundreds of lines).

But to be clear, it wasn't specifically the speed that most bothered  
me (though that was annoying). It was the fact that when I let up my  
finger, the cursor would still keep moving. Heck, we knew even in the  
old PC-DOS days to clear the keyboard buffer after processing it.

I do appreciate your response, however. Nothing would give me more  
pleasure than to go back to MacVim (as my donation indicated). And  
anything's better than that abomination TextMate. :)

///ark
>

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Re: Quick Look

Mark Wilden
In reply to this post by Andrew Stewart


On Apr 16, 2008, at 8:47 AM, Andrew Stewart wrote:

> I used to use Monaco, but after a year or two I switched to
> Inconsolata.  Maybe worth seeing if MacVim could render that in a way
> you like?

Let's be clear about this. Antialiasing isn't a "personal preference."  
Jagged text looks awful to everyone (unless their vision is blurry  
enough to do the antialiasing for them).

> http://www.levien.com/type/myfonts/inconsolata.html

That looks nice, and certainly closer to Monaco than the other fonts I  
tried. Thanks for the tip.

///ark

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Re: Quick Look

Nico Weber-3

>> http://www.levien.com/type/myfonts/inconsolata.html
>
> That looks nice, and certainly closer to Monaco than the other fonts I
> tried. Thanks for the tip.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this: MacVim includes the DejaVu Mono  
font; it's even the default font if you don't set 'guifont' in your  
_vimrc.

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Re: Quick Look

matt-13
In reply to this post by Mark Wilden

>  Let's be clear about this. Antialiasing isn't a "personal preference."
>  Jagged text looks awful to everyone (unless their vision is blurry
>  enough to do the antialiasing for them).

Um, no?  Evidently Apple seems to disagree with you as well, as Monaco
10 pt without antialiasing is the default in Terminal.app.
Personally, for both vim and the terminal I prefer this.  And no, I
don't have poor vision.

Matt

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Re: Quick Look

Mark Wilden

On Apr 16, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Matt Tolton wrote:

>
>> Let's be clear about this. Antialiasing isn't a "personal  
>> preference."
>> Jagged text looks awful to everyone (unless their vision is blurry
>> enough to do the antialiasing for them).
>
> Um, no?  Evidently Apple seems to disagree with you as well, as Monaco
> 10 pt without antialiasing is the default in Terminal.app.
> Personally, for both vim and the terminal I prefer this.  And no, I
> don't have poor vision.

Can I ask why? Why anyone would -want- their text to look jaggy (I  
don't speculate on Apple's reasons, of course). Would you also prefer  
your books printed this way? If not, why not?

I've always regarded antialiasing as a means to overcome low  
resolution. Frankly, I've never heard anyone say that they -prefer-  
the "low-res" look.

Perhaps my outlook is skewed because I'm a letterpress printter, but I  
doubt it.

///ark

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Re: Quick Look

Jakub Piotr Cłapa-3
In reply to this post by Mark Wilden

Mark Wilden wrote:
> But to be clear, it wasn't specifically the speed that most bothered  
> me (though that was annoying). It was the fact that when I let up my  
> finger, the cursor would still keep moving. Heck, we knew even in the  
> old PC-DOS days to clear the keyboard buffer after processing it.

Are you still on a G4?

--
regards,
Jakub Piotr Cłapa

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Re: Quick Look

Mark Wilden


On Apr 16, 2008, at 1:26 PM, Jakub Piotr Cłapa wrote:

>
> Mark Wilden wrote:
>> But to be clear, it wasn't specifically the speed that most bothered
>> me (though that was annoying). It was the fact that when I let up my
>> finger, the cursor would still keep moving. Heck, we knew even in the
>> old PC-DOS days to clear the keyboard buffer after processing it.
>
> Are you still on a G4?

MacBook Pro, but  I have the keyboard repeat rate cranked up to its max.

///ark
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Re: Quick Look

Ben Schmidt
In reply to this post by Mark Wilden

Mark Wilden wrote:

> On Apr 16, 2008, at 10:19 AM, Matt Tolton wrote:
>
>>> Let's be clear about this. Antialiasing isn't a "personal  
>>> preference."
>>> Jagged text looks awful to everyone (unless their vision is blurry
>>> enough to do the antialiasing for them).
>> Um, no?  Evidently Apple seems to disagree with you as well, as Monaco
>> 10 pt without antialiasing is the default in Terminal.app.
>> Personally, for both vim and the terminal I prefer this.  And no, I
>> don't have poor vision.
>
> Can I ask why? Why anyone would -want- their text to look jaggy (I  
> don't speculate on Apple's reasons, of course). Would you also prefer  
> your books printed this way? If not, why not?
>
> I've always regarded antialiasing as a means to overcome low  
> resolution. Frankly, I've never heard anyone say that they -prefer-  
> the "low-res" look.
>
> Perhaps my outlook is skewed because I'm a letterpress printter, but I  
> doubt it.

I think it's the fact that antialiasing is not without its own artifacts; it looks
'fuzzy', can yield odd 'halo' effects sometimes, or look like chromatic aberration
that photographers strive to avoid and so on. A number of people prefer a crisp,
sharp, monochromatic look to a fuzzy or otherwise distorted look, so when forced
to choose between the two 'evils'--jaggedness or fuzziness--they choose the
jaggedness. A well designed bitmap font is pretty kind on the eyes; it's different
to using a scalable font rendered at a low resolution--these fonts are hand
crafted to look good in low res, not a low res version of something designed for
higher resolution and thus poorly represented in low res.

It's also likely that in a number of situations, aliased text renders quicker. I
doubt that is the case here, though.

Ben.





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Re: Quick Look

Ben Schmidt
In reply to this post by Mark Wilden

>> Mark Wilden wrote:
>>> But to be clear, it wasn't specifically the speed that most bothered
>>> me (though that was annoying). It was the fact that when I let up my
>>> finger, the cursor would still keep moving. Heck, we knew even in the
>>> old PC-DOS days to clear the keyboard buffer after processing it.
>> Are you still on a G4?
>
> MacBook Pro, but  I have the keyboard repeat rate cranked up to its max.

I have my key repeat rate maxed out, too, and don't see this problem (I assume you
haven't hacked anything to make it repeat even faster--to be honest, I wouldn't
mind making it go above max, as I find the max speed quite slow still--computers
ten years ago repeated keys faster than this!).

The problem would really annoy me, too. Maybe some utility you have installed
could be intervening?

Ben.






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Re: Quick Look

Mark Wilden
In reply to this post by Ben Schmidt


On Apr 17, 2008, at 12:07 AM, Ben Schmidt wrote:

> Mark Wilden wrote:
>> Why anyone would -want- their text to look jaggy (I
>> don't speculate on Apple's reasons, of course). Would you also prefer
>> your books printed this way? If not, why not?
>>

> I think it's the fact that antialiasing is not without its own  
> artifacts; it looks
> 'fuzzy', can yield odd 'halo' effects sometimes, or look like  
> chromatic aberration
> that photographers strive to avoid and so on. A number of people  
> prefer a crisp,
> sharp, monochromatic look to a fuzzy or otherwise distorted look, so  
> when forced
> to choose between the two 'evils'--jaggedness or fuzziness--they  
> choose the
> jaggedness.

I would certainly agree with that. I'd choose good bitmapping over bad  
antialiasing, too. Fortunately, I don't. :) Terminal with 10 pt Monaco  
looks great (to my eyes), as does Vim. And, of course, every other app  
on my system uses antialiasing, too. I can't imagine having to read  
web pages in Safari with a jaggedy font.

However, you do remind me of another problem I had with MacVim: that  
certain fonts did indeed exhibit fuzziness on particular letters in  
certain colorschemes.

> It's also likely that in a number of situations, aliased text  
> renders quicker. I
> doubt that is the case here, though.

I'll bet that's the reason Apple chose to make it an option (and even  
the default in apps like Terminal, TextEdit and Xcode).

///ark

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Re: Quick Look

Mark Wilden
In reply to this post by Ben Schmidt

On Apr 17, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Ben Schmidt wrote:

> I have my key repeat rate maxed out, too, and don't see this problem  
> (I assume you
> haven't hacked anything to make it repeat even faster--to be honest,  
> I wouldn't
> mind making it go above max, as I find the max speed quite slow  
> still--computers
> ten years ago repeated keys faster than this!).
>
> The problem would really annoy me, too. Maybe some utility you have  
> installed
> could be intervening?

I don't think any system utility could be causing this. I just  
switched to Mac from 25 years of Microsoft's OSs and I haven't really  
tricked my system out much.

However, I do have some Vim plugins installed that might be causing  
this, like rails.vim. It's not a problem with Vim, though, so for now  
that's  my solution.

///ark

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