Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

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Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Steve Litt
On Tuesday 16 June 2009 01:10:22 pm you wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:45:08AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > While in progress with this I have a first concern to you:
> > > To be able to detect new upstream versions automatically
> > > we have a tool. But unfortunately the website of vimoutliner
> > > does not give me much to work with.
> > > I would need a website listing all available versions with its filename
> > > (e.g. vimoutliner-0.34.tar.gz or alike) and a downloadable href.
> > > The easiest would be to make a directory with the download files
> > > public, so that your webserver simply shows a directory listing.
> > >
> > > Do you think you'd be able to set this up?
> >
> > Sounds pretty easy to me, but I'm not the maintainer, Noel Henson is. I'm
> > copying Noel on this. How far back do you want us to go? I have tarballs
> > for 0.1.3 and 0.2.0, but those are 7 years old and nothing like the
> > VimOutliner of today, and they don't have install scripts.
>
> Actually I only need the at a time current version.
> The mechanisms base the decision weither a given version is new on a
> comparison of package version and the new version.

I'm pretty sure that will be easy.

> > There was an issue in an earlier package -- I don't know if it was Debian
> > or Gentoo or another distro's VO package, but it changed a basic setting
> > on VO and led to all sorts of support issues. I don't remember what it
> > was, but maybe Noel does.
>
> If you remember it, please give me a hint. If its still present, I'll
> try to fix it.

I'll kick this up to the mailing list. Does anyone remember problems with the
Debian VO package? Do you remember problems with other distros' packages? I
think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that a package-installled VO
should work identically to a VO installed by Noel's install script. Can
anyone think of anything a packager should watch out for?

When responding to this, please CC Patrick Schoenfeld at "schoenfeld at debian
dot org", because he is our new Debian packager.

Thanks

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Noel Henson
Guys,

It was/is the Debian package. Plugins were moved to non-standard places.  
Syntax highlighting was messed up. ',,' commands were replaced with '\'
commands. Body text was set to use just a space and not a colon-space
combination.

I believe I can set something up that will work. I've needed to redo the VO
website for a long time now.

Noel

On Tuesday 16 June 2009, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Tuesday 16 June 2009 01:10:22 pm you wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:45:08AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > > While in progress with this I have a first concern to you:
> > > > To be able to detect new upstream versions automatically
> > > > we have a tool. But unfortunately the website of vimoutliner
> > > > does not give me much to work with.
> > > > I would need a website listing all available versions with its
> > > > filename (e.g. vimoutliner-0.34.tar.gz or alike) and a
> > > > downloadable href. The easiest would be to make a directory with
> > > > the download files public, so that your webserver simply shows a
> > > > directory listing.
> > > >
> > > > Do you think you'd be able to set this up?
> > >
> > > Sounds pretty easy to me, but I'm not the maintainer, Noel Henson
> > > is. I'm copying Noel on this. How far back do you want us to go? I
> > > have tarballs for 0.1.3 and 0.2.0, but those are 7 years old and
> > > nothing like the VimOutliner of today, and they don't have install
> > > scripts.
> >
> > Actually I only need the at a time current version.
> > The mechanisms base the decision weither a given version is new on a
> > comparison of package version and the new version.
>
> I'm pretty sure that will be easy.
>
> > > There was an issue in an earlier package -- I don't know if it was
> > > Debian or Gentoo or another distro's VO package, but it changed a
> > > basic setting on VO and led to all sorts of support issues. I don't
> > > remember what it was, but maybe Noel does.
> >
> > If you remember it, please give me a hint. If its still present, I'll
> > try to fix it.
>
> I'll kick this up to the mailing list. Does anyone remember problems
> with the Debian VO package? Do you remember problems with other distros'
> packages? I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that a
> package-installled VO should work identically to a VO installed by
> Noel's install script. Can anyone think of anything a packager should
> watch out for?
>
> When responding to this, please CC Patrick Schoenfeld at "schoenfeld at
> debian dot org", because he is our new Debian packager.
>
> Thanks
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt



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  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

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Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Steve Litt
On Tuesday 16 June 2009 02:30:10 pm Noel Henson wrote:
> Guys,
>
> It was/is the Debian package. Plugins were moved to non-standard places.

That's not good.

> Syntax highlighting was messed up.

Nor that.

> ',,' commands were replaced with '\'
> commands.

That's just plain terrible. ',,' was selected precisely because it's fast as
lightning. '\' is a much tougher reach, and it's at different places on
different keyboards. When VO was originated, the #1 priority was input speed,
and changing ,, violates that priority.


> Body text was set to use just a space and not a colon-space
> combination.

IIRC we have a dual standard of either space or colon space for body text, and
they can be toggled with ,,B or ,,b, but IIRC a lot of features only work
with colon space. IMHO it would be much better if the Debian package used
colon space as the default for body text, the same as the VimOutliner
provided tarball and install.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

David J Patrick-2
Steve Litt wrote:
> That's not good.
> Nor that.
> That's just plain terrible.
> with colon space. IMHO it would be much better if the Debian package used
> colon space as the default for body text, the same as the VimOutliner
> provided tarball and install.
I'm with you all the way Steve, I depend on VO, and we need an up to
date package that collects the good stuff we (ok, you) have worked so
hard to put together.

Hey Noel, this is a crazy thought, I just recently put together a
development website for a project I'm participating in; taskwarrior.org,
would something like that be a good fresh re-start for VO ?
Could I offer my (webmasters) help ? Would you like to host it on our
servers (for any amount of time ?)
I only make this mad offer because I have been a happy VO user for years
and I'd so like to see it become better, easier to install and less
likely to misplace solid contributions that have been made.

at your service,
djp
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Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
Guys,

[snip]

Here are my current thoughts on VO stuff.

1. I'd like for the new installation/distribution method to be vimballs.  
Unless there is strong opposition to it. They allow for easy duplication of
a working installation and will work cross-platform. Creating vimballs for
single-user, local installation and system-wide installation are nearly
trivial. Some issues like upgrades and overwriting personal modifications
to VO behavior will have to be thought about a bit and addressed.

2. We should STANDARDIZE on ': ' body text. Anyone can of course change
their own settings in .vimoutlinerrc.

3. We should STANDARDEZE on the ',,' command prefix. Anyone can, again,
change their own settings if they desire.

4. We should address exactly where plugins should be installed at the
system level. For the single-user installation it has been very simple:
.vimoutlinter

I am really going to try to have the next release of VO ready in less than
a month. I will be sending out pre-release versions for people to help
test.

I don't have the hour or so I need right now to write up a summary of the
necessary and proposed VO changes for 0.4 but I'll try to get to it this
evening.

Thoughts?

Noel

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  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

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Re: Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

David J Patrick-2
Noel Henson wrote:
> Guys,
>
> [snip]
>
> Here are my current thoughts on VO stuff.

[snip]

> I am really going to try to have the next release of VO ready in less than
> a month. I will be sending out pre-release versions for people to help
> test.

this is heartening good news, a agree with all of your [snipped] default
suggestions, I never heard of a vimball, but would completely trust you
here, and thank you for keeping the rest of the balls rolling.
>
> I don't have the hour or so I need right now to write up a summary of the
> necessary and proposed VO changes for 0.4 but I'll try to get to it this
> evening.

I look forward to reading it.
djp
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Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Matěj Cepl
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
Steve Litt, Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:15:46 -0400:
> I'll kick this up to the mailing list. Does anyone remember problems
> with the Debian VO package?

Well, I screwed up one Debian package (just in the last minute before the
release of stable) so that it was unusable.

> I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that a
> package-installled VO should work identically to a VO installed by
> Noel's install script.

I cannot agree with that ... there is all that issue of system-wide v.
~/.vimoutliner modifications. VO installed from package should work
perfectly well without ANY ~/.vimoutliner.

Matěj

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Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Matěj Cepl
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel Henson, Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:30:10 -0700:
> It was/is the Debian package. Plugins were moved to non-standard places.

Plugins were moved to vim-standard places (/usr/share/vim/vimfiles), not
where Steve and Noel thought plugins should be (~/.vimoutliner). That's
not "non-standard" and packages should never install to ~/ anyway.

> Syntax highlighting was messed up. ',,' commands were replaced with '\'
> commands.

No, it wasn't ... it was replaced by vim-standard <mapleader>. The fact
you like it better your way, is your thing, but you shouldn't overrule
how vim is done.

(and of course, it is how a Fedora package is done, and it will be so as
long as I will maintain it, unless persuaded otherwise, but you have
tried and failed before).

> Body text was set to use just a space and not a colon-space
> combination.

I don't remember that. If it was, than it *was* screw up.

Best,

Matěj

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Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Matěj Cepl
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel Henson, Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:57:28 -0700:
> 1. I'd like for the new installation/distribution method to be vimballs.
> Unless there is strong opposition to it.

I don't care how the upstream will look like, but I will have to rework
everthing from scratch when packaging (looking at http://www.vim.org/
scripts/script.php?script_id=1502 I see for example things installed to /
usr/local/ ... that's not acceptable for any Linux package I know about).

But as I said, how will upstream deliver the stuff doesn't matter that
much ... whether these are tarballs or whatever.

> 2. We should STANDARDIZE on ': ' body text. Anyone can of course change
> their own settings in .vimoutlinerrc.

I am cool with that. There is no standard for that in vim, so we are not
breaking anything.

> 3. We should STANDARDEZE on the ',,' command prefix. Anyone can, again,
> change their own settings if they desire.

Sorry, as described in parallel message that will be overriden in
packages I maintain (Fedora), because it is unacceptable from my point of
view (of course, I don't maintian package for Debian, so anybody can do
anything there, but IMHO they should patch VO as well).

And yes, looking now at the package now (after all these years ;-)) I see
that system-wide configuration file has

"let maplocalleader = ",,"      " this is prepended to VO key

so just removing one line from the configuration file will get upstream
behavior. And it is all well documented in README.Fedora file.

I have put all what could be of Noel's interest in http://
mcepl.fedorapeople.org/tmp/vimoutliner/ (subdirectory rpms/ is just FYI
and how it is used in actual Fedora packages). Some stuff there is
probably just an illustration, but some might be worthy of inclusion to
the upstream tarball.

> 4. We should address exactly where plugins should be installed at the
> system level. For the single-user installation it has been very simple:
> .vimoutlinter

Again, I don't care where you put plugins in your tarball/vimball/
whatever, but they have to go to system standard places in standard
packages.

Let me now about any prerelease you have, I will gladly keep up Fedora's
"bleeding edge" nature alive :)

Matěj

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Re: Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Matěj Cepl
As much as I would disagree with some of Matej's other opinions, I must
agree with this one. VO was in prototype for so long that even my
installation scripts were brittle and only worked on some (most?) Linux
flavors. As a VO community it is in our all our best interests to make VO
work well on all *nix and Window$ OSes.

As far as the ,, commands go, if the Fedora installation modifies the VO
documentation appropriately, I can't really complain. Just don't want to
see a user see something like 'use ,,%" in the docs when that distribution
has configured things for '\%' and be confused.

I, personally, don't like to have the behavior of things I've spent a great
deal of time working on modified so it doesn't match the documentation, but
I am realistic about the OSS community. It is a free-for-all. This is
a great double-edged sword. Sometimes the intention of the creator(s) is
not quite what the user(s) want; regardless of what our own personal
preferences are and they modify them. But the great upside of all this is
that things (the software in this case) are continually improved.

So, don't be too hard on Matej. He has contributed a great deal to VO. We
wouldn't have vo_checkboxes with percent completion without him.

Noel

On Tuesday 16 June 2009, Matej Cepl wrote:

> Steve Litt, Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:15:46 -0400:
> > I'll kick this up to the mailing list. Does anyone remember problems
> > with the Debian VO package?
>
> Well, I screwed up one Debian package (just in the last minute before
> the release of stable) so that it was unusable.
>
> > I think (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that a
> > package-installled VO should work identically to a VO installed by
> > Noel's install script.
>
> I cannot agree with that ... there is all that issue of system-wide v.
> ~/.vimoutliner modifications. VO installed from package should work
> perfectly well without ANY ~/.vimoutliner.
>
> Mat?j
>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner



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  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.


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Re: Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Matěj Cepl
Matej,

I'll look at what you posted. I agree with what you have said, in
principle. The problem for me is that I've run unix-like Linux for so long
that I've lost touch with the newer distributions and where each one wants
to put things.

As far as the commands prefix go, I really do like ,,. Just like I use ;;
for ESC (thanks to Steve Litt's Nitro-methane vim article). Some keys are
just in better places to be used quickly. I'm an old guy and I can only hit
about 50-60 WPM when programming and editing outlines; not like some of you
youngsters that can do much better. But, I also believe that the intent of
the originators' intent of how to use the program should be considered; if
only for respect. How many of the OpenOffice keys have been remapped by
Fedora or Debian because the package managers thought better? Just
something to consider.

With great respect,
Noel

On Tuesday 16 June 2009, Matej Cepl wrote:

> Noel Henson, Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:57:28 -0700:
> > 1. I'd like for the new installation/distribution method to be
> > vimballs. Unless there is strong opposition to it.
>
> I don't care how the upstream will look like, but I will have to rework
> everthing from scratch when packaging (looking at http://www.vim.org/
> scripts/script.php?script_id=1502 I see for example things installed to
> / usr/local/ ... that's not acceptable for any Linux package I know
> about).
>
> But as I said, how will upstream deliver the stuff doesn't matter that
> much ... whether these are tarballs or whatever.
>
> > 2. We should STANDARDIZE on ': ' body text. Anyone can of course
> > change their own settings in .vimoutlinerrc.
>
> I am cool with that. There is no standard for that in vim, so we are not
> breaking anything.
>
> > 3. We should STANDARDEZE on the ',,' command prefix. Anyone can,
> > again, change their own settings if they desire.
>
> Sorry, as described in parallel message that will be overriden in
> packages I maintain (Fedora), because it is unacceptable from my point
> of view (of course, I don't maintian package for Debian, so anybody can
> do anything there, but IMHO they should patch VO as well).
>
> And yes, looking now at the package now (after all these years ;-)) I
> see that system-wide configuration file has
>
> "let maplocalleader = ",,"      " this is prepended to VO key
>
> so just removing one line from the configuration file will get upstream
> behavior. And it is all well documented in README.Fedora file.
>
> I have put all what could be of Noel's interest in http://
> mcepl.fedorapeople.org/tmp/vimoutliner/ (subdirectory rpms/ is just FYI
> and how it is used in actual Fedora packages). Some stuff there is
> probably just an illustration, but some might be worthy of inclusion to
> the upstream tarball.
>
> > 4. We should address exactly where plugins should be installed at the
> > system level. For the single-user installation it has been very
> > simple: .vimoutlinter
>
> Again, I don't care where you put plugins in your tarball/vimball/
> whatever, but they have to go to system standard places in standard
> packages.
>
> Let me now about any prerelease you have, I will gladly keep up Fedora's
> "bleeding edge" nature alive :)
>
> Mat?j
>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner



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  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

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Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Tuesday 16 June 2009 02:57:28 pm you wrote:

> Guys,
>
> [snip]
>
> Here are my current thoughts on VO stuff.
>
> 1. I'd like for the new installation/distribution method to be vimballs.
> Unless there is strong opposition to it. They allow for easy duplication of
> a working installation and will work cross-platform. Creating vimballs for
> single-user, local installation and system-wide installation are nearly
> trivial. Some issues like upgrades and overwriting personal modifications
> to VO behavior will have to be thought about a bit and addressed.

I've had no experience with Vimballs. Can an RPM, deb or whatever package
install a Vimball?
>
> 2. We should STANDARDIZE on ': ' body text. Anyone can of course change
> their own settings in .vimoutlinerrc.

Oh heck yeah! ': ' is much more visually recognizeable. In my experience it's
much easier to handle from Vim because it's a Vim comment.


>
> 3. We should STANDARDEZE on the ',,' command prefix. Anyone can, again,
> change their own settings if they desire.

Oh heck yeah! It's the fastest available, it's been the standard since 2001.

>
> 4. We should address exactly where plugins should be installed at the
> system level. For the single-user installation it has been very simple:
> .vimoutlinter

My preference is that now and forever all VO files be prefixed vo_ so that
someone wanting to uninstall can easily delete the files to deinstall, and so
VimOutliner files are instantly recognizeable. If we continue maintaining the
vo_ prefix, the files can be put almost anywhere without causing confusion.

>
> I am really going to try to have the next release of VO ready in less than
> a month. I will be sending out pre-release versions for people to help
> test.

It would be cool if there were exactly one and only one place where you
declare file patterns that are VO. I use VO for .otl, .pho, .emdl, .ebdl.
Others use other file patterns.

>
> I don't have the hour or so I need right now to write up a summary of the
> necessary and proposed VO changes for 0.4 but I'll try to get to it this
> evening.
>
> Thoughts?

We should all get together and make a troubleshooting laddar for VO, similar
to the old Samba DIAGNOSIS.txt. There have been so many times someone said "I
get no colors", and all of us knew we'd solved that before but forgot the
series of diagnostic tests necessary to narrow it down.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: Re: vimoutliner Debian package -- Download links

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Matěj Cepl
On Tuesday 16 June 2009 05:05:04 pm Matej Cepl wrote:
> Noel Henson, Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:30:10 -0700:

> No, it wasn't ... it was replaced by vim-standard <mapleader>. The fact
> you like it better your way, is your thing, but you shouldn't overrule
> how vim is done.

<mapleader> is an implementation detail. The VO command prefix has been ",,"
since 0.1.3 from 2001, long before VO was a Vim plugin (remember the series
of Perl and Bash scripts?). The rationale for ",," was the project charter
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/projects/vimoutliner/index.htm#Charter) which
stated:

"The design manifesto of VimOutliner is easy and fast outlining. It has been
designed so that you can outline as fast as you can think."

If there's an insistance on not changing <mapleader>, perhaps the VO startup
script could set a VO supplied variable (call it <voleader> or whatever)
to ",,", and do a global search and replace changing all <mapleader> to
<voleader> or whatever. That way <mapleader> would be left as Vim set it. But
whatever we do, I strongly believe all VO installations on all machines
should default the command prefix to ",,". That's just very central to the
basic design philosophy of VO, and if it's changed VO begins to devolve into
Grandview or Emacs.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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