VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
21 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Noel Henson
Everyone,

Due to the economy, I seem to have no work to do. So I thought I'd take
advantage of this opportunity to put together all of the great changes
people have come up with for version 0.4.0. Woohoo!

I'm working on creating the todo list for VO 0.4.0 so I can get make sure
I don't miss anything.

First, a quick question about file naming conventions. Currently we use
vo_* for all VO files that are specifically used by vim. This has worked
well in the past but I have a minor issue. We currently have three
different vo_base.vim files, each with a different function:

ftplugin/vo_base.vim
syntax/vo_base.vim
ftdetect/vo_base.vim

Would it be OK to rename the files something like:

ftplugin/voplugin.vim
syntax/vosyntax.vim
ftdetect/vodetect.vim

or:

ftplugin/vo_plugin.vim
syntax/vo_syntax.vim
ftdetect/vo_detect.vim

We would still be able to quickly locate all VO vim files with a locate or
find but it would give the advantage of different file names for the
different functions. Thoughts?

Here is the short version of the list:

Release 0.4.0 Target Features
        New Installation Method
                System-wide *nix
                Single-user *nix
                Windows*
                (I'm strongly leaning towards vimballs)
        Better Color Schemes
                Console
                        light
                        dark
                        user favorites
                Gtk
                        light
                        dark
                        user favorites
        Better Folding
        Better VO Plugins
                Checkboxes weighting support
        New VO Plugings
                Smart paste
                Outline math
                What else?
        Scripts (vim)
                Fix ,, local leader mapping
                Integrate with 2html.vim
                What else?
        Scripts (non-vim)
                otl2html
                otl2tags
                otlsplit
                otlreorder
                otlgrep
                otlhead
                otltail
                What else?
        Improved/Additional Documentation
                otl2html
                otl2tags
                otlsplit
                otlreorder
                otlgrep
                otlhead
                otltail
                Tutorials
        Tool Bar for Gtk
                What should be included on the tool bar?
        More Menu Options
                What else do we need?
        New/Better Key/Command Mappings
                ALT-UP: move leaf/branch up
                ALT-DOWN: move leaf/branch down
                ALT-LEFT: promote leaf/branch
                ALT-RIGHT: demote leaf/branch
                What else?
Questions
        Where should VO plugins be located?
                On *nix?
                On Windows*

I've been going through all the todos I have from the mailing list but I'm
sure I'm missing some and on others I may be missing the intent. Please
feel free to let me know about everything that should be considered.

Thanks, all!

Noel

--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

A closer look at org-mode...

Bill Powell
Hi all,

Well, there was a post on here recently about org-mode, and
I confess I've had a look.

I've been using VimOutliner for several years now, and even
contributed a fix or two. So it would take a lot to get
me interested in an alternative tool.

But, I'm interested. Really interested.

And I'm only posting about it here to help clarify what
people want out of VO. At this point, VO is a stable,
excellent tool for what Steve first designed it to be:
authoring _fast_.  But looking over the TODO list Noel's
setting out for himself below, it looks like we want more.
We don't just want to author fast, we want to be able to do
all kinds of stuff with the text /after/ we've authored it,
export it to other formats, tie it to other programs, and
analyze it with sophisticated tools.

It's all this post-authoring goodness that has me into
org-mode. If you want something really sophisticated, it may
be that a lot of that work has already been done.

For instance, suppose that (like me), you've been using VO
files for managing GTD tasks. There's a script or two here
or there to help with this, but as far as I know, nothing
terribly sophisticated. We each might have private bash or
perl scripts for tying VO to a calendar program, but if so,
they're one-offs that wouldn't easily distribute.

Now imagine that meanwhile, there's this whole other
community built around the same basic ideas -- plain text
and fast outlining -- that has developed a whole array of
sophisticated tools for doing this. Rather than summarize
the features, here's a link to how one guy runs his life in
plain text:

http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html

If that page whets your appetite, you can probably fire up
your copy of Emacs, press C-h i for help, and search or tab
down to Org-mode.  If it's not there, the org-mode web site is here:
http://orgmode.org/org.html#Introduction
Just look through the TOC and see what the feature list
does for you.

Of course, it _is_ in Emacs. I've certainly invested more
than a few hours over the last few days learning about
Emacs, and I'm not at all used to it yet. But if you turn on
Viper Mode (M-x viper-mode) you can keep most of the fast vi
keystrokes, and that was probably the main selling point for
most of us back when we settled on vi.

And speaking of the vi vs. Emacs ... if you're the
sort who's always trying to do more things with your editor,
trying to do everything else in plain text ... well, maybe
Emacs isn't so bad after all. If you have Viper Mode, that
is. Once you make Emacs modal, you discover that there's
this whole ecosystem of people who have been trying to link
their editor to other tools for years. Maybe we were closer
to Emacs than vi all along, and just didn't know? :)

Anyway, we'll see how long I last. :) But I wanted to float
this here, in case people decide that extending and
extending and extending VO might turn out to be reinventing
the wheel a bit. VO is awesome for what it was designed to
do. But if you want tons of other features, maybe the work's
already been done.

Bill Powell

+++ Noel Henson [03/09/09 11:32 -0700]:

> Everyone,
>
> Due to the economy, I seem to have no work to do. So I thought I'd take
> advantage of this opportunity to put together all of the great changes
> people have come up with for version 0.4.0. Woohoo!
>
> I'm working on creating the todo list for VO 0.4.0 so I can get make sure
> I don't miss anything.
>
> First, a quick question about file naming conventions. Currently we use
> vo_* for all VO files that are specifically used by vim. This has worked
> well in the past but I have a minor issue. We currently have three
> different vo_base.vim files, each with a different function:
>
> ftplugin/vo_base.vim
> syntax/vo_base.vim
> ftdetect/vo_base.vim
>
> Would it be OK to rename the files something like:
>
> ftplugin/voplugin.vim
> syntax/vosyntax.vim
> ftdetect/vodetect.vim
>
> or:
>
> ftplugin/vo_plugin.vim
> syntax/vo_syntax.vim
> ftdetect/vo_detect.vim
>
> We would still be able to quickly locate all VO vim files with a locate or
> find but it would give the advantage of different file names for the
> different functions. Thoughts?
>
> Here is the short version of the list:
>
> Release 0.4.0 Target Features
> New Installation Method
> System-wide *nix
> Single-user *nix
> Windows*
> (I'm strongly leaning towards vimballs)
> Better Color Schemes
> Console
> light
> dark
> user favorites
> Gtk
> light
> dark
> user favorites
> Better Folding
> Better VO Plugins
> Checkboxes weighting support
> New VO Plugings
> Smart paste
> Outline math
> What else?
> Scripts (vim)
> Fix ,, local leader mapping
> Integrate with 2html.vim
> What else?
> Scripts (non-vim)
> otl2html
> otl2tags
> otlsplit
> otlreorder
> otlgrep
> otlhead
> otltail
> What else?
> Improved/Additional Documentation
> otl2html
> otl2tags
> otlsplit
> otlreorder
> otlgrep
> otlhead
> otltail
> Tutorials
> Tool Bar for Gtk
> What should be included on the tool bar?
> More Menu Options
> What else do we need?
> New/Better Key/Command Mappings
> ALT-UP: move leaf/branch up
> ALT-DOWN: move leaf/branch down
> ALT-LEFT: promote leaf/branch
> ALT-RIGHT: demote leaf/branch
> What else?
> Questions
> Where should VO plugins be located?
> On *nix?
> On Windows*
>
> I've been going through all the todos I have from the mailing list but I'm
> sure I'm missing some and on others I may be missing the intent. Please
> feel free to let me know about everything that should be considered.
>
> Thanks, all!
>
> Noel
>
> --
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Noel Henson
>   www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
>   www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.
>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
>

--
_____________________________________________________________

http://stmarysmessenger.com : New Catholic magazine for kids!
http://wineskinmedia.com : Books and sites crafted with care.
http://billpowellisalive.com : Man found alive with two legs.  
_____________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Noel Henson wrote:
> Everyone,
>
> Due to the economy, I seem to have no work to do. So I thought I'd take
> advantage of this opportunity to put together all of the great changes
> people have come up with for version 0.4.0. Woohoo!
Yayyy !!.. i mean.. sorry to hear the Noel ;-)
>
> I'm working on creating the todo list for VO 0.4.0 so I can get make sure
> I don't miss anything.
I'm all for it, shoot!
>
> First, a quick question about file naming conventions.
> Would it be OK to rename the files something like:
>
> ftplugin/vo_plugin.vim
> syntax/vo_syntax.vim
> ftdetect/vo_detect.vim
I prefer this one; better continuity and visual parsing.
>
> Here is the short version of the list:
>
> Release 0.4.0 Target Features
> New Installation Method
> (I'm strongly leaning towards vimballs)
vimballs, please
> Better Color Schemes
amen !
> > Better Folding
how so ?
> Better VO Plugins
> Checkboxes weighting support
> New VO Plugings
> Smart paste
> Outline math
> What else?
(this is worthy of separate announcement, but) I have been working with
Todd Coram, the author of AFT (Almost Free Text) the most excellent text
to print/web converter. He has in turn developed a new VO converter
(using his new gawk toy; "knit") that will convert a vimoutline.otl file
to aft, maintaining all (?) the aft markup as well as vo markup. He is
also in the process of dramatically updating the LaTeX output engine
from "article" (the most basic) to "memoir" (the richest) enabling (in
theory) publisher-grade output (with a few short scripted hops) from
myfile.otl.
(code and details emerging, I'll keep you posted)
> Scripts (vim)
> Fix ,, local leader mapping
> Integrate with 2html.vim
> What else?
:hardcopy printing scripts
> Scripts (non-vim)
> otl2html
> otl2tags
> otlsplit
> otlreorder
> otlgrep
> otlhead
> otltail
> What else?
otl2aft.awk (see above)

> Improved/Additional Documentation
> otl2html
> otl2tags
> otlsplit
> otlreorder
> otlgrep
> otlhead
> otltail
> Tutorials
> New/Better Key/Command Mappings
> ALT-UP: move leaf/branch up
> ALT-DOWN: move leaf/branch down
> ALT-LEFT: promote leaf/branch
> ALT-RIGHT: demote leaf/branch
YES PLEASE! just like that
> What else?
> Questions
> Where should VO plugins be located?
> On *nix?
~/.vim/plugins, /syntax, /colors  etc.
> On Windows*
  ?

>
> I've been going through all the todos I have from the mailing list but I'm
> sure I'm missing some and on others I may be missing the intent. Please
> feel free to let me know about everything that should be considered.
>
> Thanks, all!
Thank you noel for still having the helm and sharing the vision.
I am heartened and like where this is going. vimoutliner has been an
important part of my process for many years, and I think we all have a
lot to aggregate.
thank YOU,
djp
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Lucas González
Sorry to hear that, Noel.  And thank you!

I think I would like to be able to see just 2 generations in a tree, and move with 4 arrows.

===The outline I see at first
Grand-dad
-Parent1 <cursor here>
-Parent2
===What I see when I press "right arrow"
Parent1 <cursor here>
-Son11
-Son12
===Then I press "left", "down", "right" and I see
Parent2
-Son21
-Son22
===

Is this possible? Maybe with "alt-arrow" instead of "arrow"?

I recall I wrote a view2gen(erations).py once.  Just view, not edit.

Again, thanks!

Lucas

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
David J Patrick wrote:
> Noel Henson wrote:
>> Everyone,
>>
>> Due to the economy, I seem to have no work to do. So I thought I'd
>> take advantage of this opportunity to put together all of the great
>> changes people have come up with for version 0.4.0. Woohoo!

>>     New/Better Key/Command Mappings
>>         ALT-UP: move leaf/branch up
>>         ALT-DOWN: move leaf/branch down
>>         ALT-LEFT: promote leaf/branch
>>         ALT-RIGHT: demote leaf/branch
> YES PLEASE! just like that

WAIT !
I recant !
I've watched a couple of videos made by hsitz (Herb)
http://www.nabble.com/Some-videos-demonstrating-potentially-new-stuff-for-VO-td21740994.html#a21740994
and I want it ALL;

<alt> arrows = heading navigation
<ctrl>arrows = "inner-outline" expand/collapse
<ctrl><alt> arrows = heading move
thorough, well thought out, needed functionality

hsitz has been introducing a lot of really good ideas, and code to back
it up, I think we should review some of his suggestions.
thanks,
djp
>>    
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Thursday 03 September 2009 14:32:27 Noel Henson wrote:

> First, a quick question about file naming conventions. Currently we use
> vo_* for all VO files that are specifically used by vim. This has worked
> well in the past but I have a minor issue. We currently have three
> different vo_base.vim files, each with a different function:
>
> ftplugin/vo_base.vim
> syntax/vo_base.vim
> ftdetect/vo_base.vim
>
> Would it be OK to rename the files something like:
>
> ftplugin/voplugin.vim
> syntax/vosyntax.vim
> ftdetect/vodetect.vim
>
> or:
>
> ftplugin/vo_plugin.vim
> syntax/vo_syntax.vim
> ftdetect/vo_detect.vim
>
> We would still be able to quickly locate all VO vim files with a locate or
> find but it would give the advantage of different file names for the
> different functions. Thoughts?

The latter -- the set with the underscore. The purpose of the naming
convention was so that, after switching from the old "vo in a tree"
architecture to the new "vim plugin" architecture, we could still identify any
files belonging to VimOutliner, and we specified every file belonging to
VimOutliner must begin with "vo_". So the latter set you mentioned already
conforms to our naming convention -- it was never expected that the entire
filename would be the same.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Thursday 03 September 2009 14:32:27 Noel Henson wrote:

> Here is the short version of the list:
>
> Release 0.4.0 Target Features
> New Installation Method
> System-wide *nix
> Single-user *nix
> Windows*
> (I'm strongly leaning towards vimballs)
Oh man is that gonna save users time and us troubleshooting, as long as it
consistently works.

[clip]
> Better Folding
I think the current folding is outstanding. What could be better? Would there
be a risk of the improvement being worse for some?

[clip]
> New VO Plugings
> Smart paste
> Outline math
> What else?
A robust, consistently noncorrupting hoist. I know this is incredibly hard, so
if it can't be done it can't be done. Personally, I have no strong need for
hoist, but I see it as one possible method for having multiauthor
collaboration.

Multiauthor collaboration would be a HUGE addition to VO.

> Scripts (vim)
> Fix ,, local leader mapping
Hallelujah!!!

The versions using \\ were, in my opinion, an abomination.


> Integrate with 2html.vim
> What else?
> Scripts (non-vim)
> otl2html
> otl2tags
> otlsplit
> otlreorder
> otlgrep
> otlhead
> otltail
> What else?
otl2lyx. I have one for LyX 1.5.x, and can test it against 1.6.x.
Unfortunately, as I remember, it's a perl/bash/awk hybrid, but it sure works.

Script to titlecase all headlines but not body text. I think I have one,
although once again, I think it's a vim/bash hybrid.

> Improved/Additional Documentation
> otl2html
> otl2tags
> otlsplit
> otlreorder
> otlgrep
> otlhead
> otltail
> Tutorials

Every single part of VO needs better documentation. All current docs are years
old and hastily adapted from VO 0.13, which bears little resemblance to
today's product. Why don't we make a prioritized list for docs. I'll start
documenting some, maybe others can document some, and we can do down the list.

> Tool Bar for Gtk
> What should be included on the tool bar?
> More Menu Options
> What else do we need?
> New/Better Key/Command Mappings
> ALT-UP: move leaf/branch up
> ALT-DOWN: move leaf/branch down
> ALT-LEFT: promote leaf/branch
                        >> already does this and is the Vim way.
> ALT-RIGHT: demote leaf/branch
                        << already does this and is the Vim way.
> What else?
                        Some ,, command to bring up a help screen with all ,, commands and other
keystroke macros.

Also, the elephant in the room -- a newbie easy all-insert-all-the-time VO,
with tutorial elements so they can transition to the faster Vim way of doing
it, although this would make wrapping body text incredibly difficult.

Actually not -- I've written wrapping algorithms in C that would do this.

Anyway, perhaps the newbie VO can be done by capturing Alt+, and using that
instead of ,,. If we did that, perhaps the newbie simple model could be a Tk
or GTK or Java program.


> Questions
> Where should VO plugins be located?
> On *nix?
                        What's wrong with where they are now?
> On Windows*

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A closer look at org-mode...

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Bill Powell
On Thursday 03 September 2009 15:59:46 Bill Powell wrote:

> If that page whets your appetite, you can probably fire up
> your copy of Emacs, press C-h i for help, and search or tab
> down to Org-mode.  

Urk! You had me interested til the preceding sentence. I already have to put
Ben Gay on my wrist on days when I type a lot. Emacs is a repetitive stress
injury waiting to happen.

It would be cool to have this whole environment within which you could post-
process VO files. I'd just prefer it not be Emacs.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A closer look at org-mode...

David J Patrick-2
In reply to this post by Bill Powell
Bill Powell wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Well, there was a post on here recently about org-mode, and
> I confess I've had a look.
>
> I've been using VimOutliner for several years now, and even
> contributed a fix or two. So it would take a lot to get
> me interested in an alternative tool.
>
> But, I'm interested. Really interested.
I see where you're going with this, Bill, but you'll find that many of
use made our vim/emacs choice years ago and have too much invested in
muscle memory to consider a switch. That said, I too have looked upon
orgmode with wonder and amazement. There is much Deep Thought behind it
and we should mine every last Great Idea from it.
djp
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Ross Boylan
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Thu, 2009-09-03 at 11:32 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> Everyone,
>
> Due to the economy, I seem to have no work to do. So I thought I'd take
> advantage of this opportunity to put together all of the great changes
> people have come up with for version 0.4.0. Woohoo!
I'm sorry you're having trouble finding work, but glad you have some
time for vo.

The main thing I'm interested in, which I didn't see on the list, is the
ability to expand or collapse suboutlines, ideally to an arbitrary
level.  For example, show the subheads and their subheads for this
heading only.

As David Patrick already noted, Herb Sitz has already developed stuff to
do this.  It would be great to get it in the mainline distribution.

On org-mode: I primarily use emacs, but found its outliner mode annoying
enough that I use vo for that.  As I understand it, emacs outlines
require that you enter *'s for the level of the heading and then text
goes below it at the left hand margin.  In fact, everything is at the
left hand margin.  This is insufficiently visual for me.

A few other items below:

>
> I'm working on creating the todo list for VO 0.4.0 so I can get make sure
> I don't miss anything.
>
> First, a quick question about file naming conventions. Currently we use
> vo_* for all VO files that are specifically used by vim. This has worked
> well in the past but I have a minor issue. We currently have three
> different vo_base.vim files, each with a different function:
>
> ftplugin/vo_base.vim
> syntax/vo_base.vim
> ftdetect/vo_base.vim
>
> Would it be OK to rename the files something like:
>
> ftplugin/voplugin.vim
> syntax/vosyntax.vim
> ftdetect/vodetect.vim
>
> or:
>
> ftplugin/vo_plugin.vim
> syntax/vo_syntax.vim
> ftdetect/vo_detect.vim
Yes.  I don't care much to which.
>
> We would still be able to quickly locate all VO vim files with a locate or
> find but it would give the advantage of different file names for the
> different functions. Thoughts?
>
> Here is the short version of the list:
>
> Release 0.4.0 Target Features
> Better Folding
meaning?
> Better VO Plugins
> Checkboxes weighting support
> New VO Plugings
> Smart paste
If that means indented appropriately for level, that would be good.
Otherwise, what does it mean?
> Outline math
?
> What else?
> Scripts (vim)
> Fix ,, local leader mapping
Fix how?  A perenial problem is that the docs say ,, but Debian uses \\
for consistency with general vim useage (that's just my understanding of
the reason)
.....

> New/Better Key/Command Mappings
> ALT-UP: move leaf/branch up
> ALT-DOWN: move leaf/branch down
> ALT-LEFT: promote leaf/branch
> ALT-RIGHT: demote leaf/branch
> What else?
Do you mean "move" as in "move the cursor" or "move the headline"?  Both
would be useful.  Again, I think Herb's scripts provide it.
> Questions
> Where should VO plugins be located?
> On *nix?
Different distributions (Debian, RedHat, ...) may have different
conventions, but the package maintainer will (or should) follow them
regardless of your default.  You can support them by providing
configuration switches (maybe you already do).  In Unix that's often in
the config script (again, don't know if you have one).

Ross

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Matěj Cepl
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
David J Patrick <[hidden email]> writes:

> Noel Henson wrote:

> ~/.vim/plugins, /syntax, /colors  etc.

$VIMRUNTIME/{plugins,syntax,colors,...} please. What I mean (and I am
not sure it is really $VIMRUNTIME) is that plugins, syntax, colors,
could be in $HOME/.vim/, /usr/share/vim/vimfiles, and
/usr/share/vim/vim<number>/ in this order.

Matěj

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A closer look at org-mode...

Joshua B.
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:50 AM, David J Patrick<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Bill Powell wrote:
> I see where you're going with this, Bill, but you'll find that many of use
> made our vim/emacs choice years ago and have too much invested in muscle
> memory to consider a switch.

Not a coder but vim + vimoutliner got me through law school.  Think
super-efficient note taking and outlining with otl2html for easily
exportable/printable CANS. Even  now at the law firm I ssh out on the
sly (putty on a usb stick) to a unix server and use an otl to manage
my case load.  So I feel a strong attachment to vim... none the less I
aspire toward vi/emacs ambidexterity.  This "viper mode" intrigues me.
 I wouldn't mind hearing more.
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Carsten Hey-4
In reply to this post by Ross Boylan
On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 08:46:52AM -0700, Ross Boylan wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-09-03 at 11:32 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> > Smart paste
> If that means indented appropriately for level, that would be good.
> Otherwise, what does it mean?

"indented appropriately for level" is the correct description of this
feature.  The original mail about smart paste can be found at:
http://lists.vimoutliner.org/pipermail/vimoutliner/2008-October/002366.html

For example, imagine the following file with all folds opened:

a
 b
 c
d

You move to line 4, delete the line, move the cursor to line 2 and
paste.  Your file now looks like this:

a
 b
 d
 c

Smart paste seems to work in this case :)

Now move to line 4, delete it and move to line 1 and paste.  Your file
now looks like this:

a
 b
 d
c

I'd expect to paste "c" to line 2 instead.  The attached version of
vo_smartpaste.vim fixes this.

My changes are licensed under the same conditions Noel Henson might
choose for the original vo_smartpaste.vim.


Carsten

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo

vo_smartpaste.vim (638 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Noel Henson
On Sunday 06 September 2009, Carsten Hey wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 08:46:52AM -0700, Ross Boylan wrote:
> > On Thu, 2009-09-03 at 11:32 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> > > Smart paste
> >
> > If that means indented appropriately for level, that would be good.
> > Otherwise, what does it mean?
>
> "indented appropriately for level" is the correct description of this
> feature.  The original mail about smart paste can be found at:
> http://lists.vimoutliner.org/pipermail/vimoutliner/2008-October/002366.h
>tml
>
> For example, imagine the following file with all folds opened:
>
> a
>  b
>  c
> d
>
> You move to line 4, delete the line, move the cursor to line 2 and
> paste.  Your file now looks like this:
>
> a
>  b
>  d
>  c
>
> Smart paste seems to work in this case :)
>
> Now move to line 4, delete it and move to line 1 and paste.  Your file
> now looks like this:
>
> a
>  b
>  d
> c
>
> I'd expect to paste "c" to line 2 instead.  The attached version of
> vo_smartpaste.vim fixes this.
>
> My changes are licensed under the same conditions Noel Henson might
> choose for the original vo_smartpaste.vim.
>
>
> Carsten

Carsten,

I see what you mean, but after using outliners for a long time, I would
expect it to NOT move to a child position but rather to a sibling position,
like it does. I have been considering the extension of vo_smartpaste to
include commands for:

paste-as-sibling
paste-as-child
paste-as-parent

Also, one thing that still bothers me is if I'm working on a particular
outline level with closed folds and I want to add a new sibling. Like this:

unfolded outline:

Test Outline
[_] A
        [_] 69% Aa
                [_] 69% Aab
                [_] 69% Aac
                [_] 69% Aad
        [_] 69% Ab
        [_] 69% Ac
        [_] 69% Ad

folded outline:

Test Outline
[_] A
        [_] 69% Aa -------------------------------------- (3 lines)
        [_] 69% Ab
        [_] 69% Ac
        [_] 69% Ad

If the cursor is on Aa (line 3), and I hit 'o', it unfolds Aa (and all it's
children) and opens a line at the level of the last descendant (ie. after
Aad). I would rather have it open a line at the level of Aa between Aa and
Ab.

So, clearly I need to do some more work in this area. I believe that
vo_smartpaste will become vo_smartedits.

Thoughts?

Noel


--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Carsten Hey-4
On Sun, Sep 06, 2009 at 11:03:49AM -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> I see what you mean, but after using outliners for a long time, I would
> expect it to NOT move to a child position but rather to a sibling position,
> like it does.

I would expect it not to move to a child position but rather to
a sibling position only if the current line is a closed fold, which my
version does in most cases (there is a minor bug if the foldlevel of the
current line is 0 or something like this, but it doesn't bother me
enough to fix it).

> Also, one thing that still bothers me is if I'm working on a particular
> outline level with closed folds and I want to add a new sibling. Like this:
>
> ...
>
> If the cursor is on Aa (line 3), and I hit 'o', it unfolds Aa (and all it's
> children) and opens a line at the level of the last descendant (ie. after
> Aad). I would rather have it open a line at the level of Aa between Aa and
> Ab.

This should do what you want.  You need to replace
clib#getmap#GetMap("i") with "i" and clib#getmap#GetMap("o") with "o".

" Vim map
" Maintainer:   Carsten Hey <[hidden email]>
" Copyright:    2009
" License:      MIT License

" Don't open closed folds with o and indent correctly.
exec 'nnoremap <buffer> <expr> o'
\ .   ' foldclosed(".") == -1'
\ . ' ? ' . clib#getmap#GetMap("o")
\ . " : ':let @x=\"\\n\"<CR>:silent put x<CR>' ." . clib#getmap#GetMap("i")
\ . '.( ( indent(foldclosed(".")) > 0 && indent(foldclosedend(".") + 1) > 0 )'
\ . ' ? join( map( range( indent( foldclosed( line(".") ) )'
\ .                     ' / &tabstop),'
\ .              " \"'\t'\"),"
\ .         ' "")'
\ .   " : ''"
\ . ' )'

> Thoughts?

I'm not sure if different functions for pasting (paste-as-sibling,
paste-as-child and paste-as-parent) are really that useful, I would
prefer one with sane defaults and let the users use plain vim to adapt
their outline if the defaults do not fit.


Carsten
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Sunday 06 September 2009 14:03:49 Noel Henson wrote:

> Carsten,
>
> I see what you mean, but after using outliners for a long time, I would
> expect it to NOT move to a child position but rather to a sibling position,
> like it does.

Me too. When working on any outliner with expand and collapse (what we call
folding), paste as a parent or as a child can cause a lot of confusion. Paste
as sibling never causes confusion.

> I have been considering the extension of vo_smartpaste to
> include commands for:
>
> paste-as-sibling
> paste-as-child
> paste-as-parent

I'd vote to leave well enough alone. We're running out of ,, commands, and the
few remaining possibilities I'd rather spend on something more needed. We
could do child and parent pasting with other commands, but then the wrist-
twisting of the command would offset the benefit of a single command to do what
you want.

>
> Also, one thing that still bothers me is if I'm working on a particular
> outline level with closed folds and I want to add a new sibling. Like this:
>
> unfolded outline:
>
> Test Outline
> [_] A
> [_] 69% Aa
> [_] 69% Aab
> [_] 69% Aac
> [_] 69% Aad
> [_] 69% Ab
> [_] 69% Ac
> [_] 69% Ad
>
> folded outline:
>
> Test Outline
> [_] A
> [_] 69% Aa -------------------------------------- (3 lines)
> [_] 69% Ab
> [_] 69% Ac
> [_] 69% Ad
>
> If the cursor is on Aa (line 3), and I hit 'o', it unfolds Aa (and all it's
> children) and opens a line at the level of the last descendant (ie. after
> Aad). I would rather have it open a line at the level of Aa between Aa and
> Ab.

If I had my exact druthers, I'd prefer it to create a sibling of Aa and Ab
right above Ab. Instead it creates a child of Aa right above Ab. But to me,
that's a very minor point. Personally, I'd leave well enough alone.

If I wanted a sibling of Ab above Ab when the cursor is on Aa and Aa is
collapsed, o<backspace> does this quickly and accurately. Even better is JO.
If I wanted a first child of Aa while Aa was collapsed, I'd go zoo<tab>.

One might argue these are a lot of keystrokes, but I'd argue they aren't a big
percentage of VO work. I think the biggest percentage of VO authoring work is
plain, sequential input. I'd also argue that in cases where you want to create
a child, unless you have a better memory than me you'd probably need to expand
the collapsed parent to see exactly where you want to put the child.

I think the biggest authoring and editing aid is that feature someone made
where you could go to previous sibling, go to next sibling, go to last
sibling, or go to parent. There is currently no easy way to do a lot of these
things, and they come up time and time again.

Thanks

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: VO 0.4.0 plan and a file naming convention question

Noel Henson
On Sunday 06 September 2009, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Sunday 06 September 2009 14:03:49 Noel Henson wrote:
> > Carsten,
> >
> > I see what you mean, but after using outliners for a long time, I
> > would expect it to NOT move to a child position but rather to a
> > sibling position, like it does.
>
> Me too. When working on any outliner with expand and collapse (what we
> call folding), paste as a parent or as a child can cause a lot of
> confusion. Paste as sibling never causes confusion.

Yes, it can if it is the default option.

>
> > I have been considering the extension of vo_smartpaste to
> > include commands for:
> >
> > paste-as-sibling
> > paste-as-child
> > paste-as-parent
>
> I'd vote to leave well enough alone. We're running out of ,, commands,
> and the few remaining possibilities I'd rather spend on something more
> needed. We could do child and parent pasting with other commands, but
> then the wrist- twisting of the command would offset the benefit of a
> single command to do what you want.

I wasn't going to use a ,, command for this. I was thinking of redefining
'p' and 'P', the normal paste commands, and ctrl-p.

>
> > Also, one thing that still bothers me is if I'm working on a
> > particular outline level with closed folds and I want to add a new
> > sibling. Like this:
> >
> > unfolded outline:
> >
> > Test Outline
> > [_] A
> > [_] 69% Aa
> > [_] 69% Aab
> > [_] 69% Aac
> > [_] 69% Aad
> > [_] 69% Ab
> > [_] 69% Ac
> > [_] 69% Ad
> >
> > folded outline:
> >
> > Test Outline
> > [_] A
> > [_] 69% Aa -------------------------------------- (3 lines)
> > [_] 69% Ab
> > [_] 69% Ac
> > [_] 69% Ad
> >
> > If the cursor is on Aa (line 3), and I hit 'o', it unfolds Aa (and all
> > it's children) and opens a line at the level of the last descendant
> > (ie. after Aad). I would rather have it open a line at the level of Aa
> > between Aa and Ab.
>
> If I had my exact druthers, I'd prefer it to create a sibling of Aa and
> Ab right above Ab. Instead it creates a child of Aa right above Ab. But
> to me, that's a very minor point. Personally, I'd leave well enough
> alone.
>
> If I wanted a sibling of Ab above Ab when the cursor is on Aa and Aa is
> collapsed, o<backspace> does this quickly and accurately. Even better is
> JO. If I wanted a first child of Aa while Aa was collapsed, I'd go
> zoo<tab>.
>
> One might argue these are a lot of keystrokes, but I'd argue they aren't
> a big percentage of VO work. I think the biggest percentage of VO
> authoring work is plain, sequential input. I'd also argue that in cases
> where you want to create a child, unless you have a better memory than
> me you'd probably need to expand the collapsed parent to see exactly
> where you want to put the child.

Hmmm. I think this pasting could be smart and determine what do do based on
both the cursor position and whether or not it is on a close fold.

>
> I think the biggest authoring and editing aid is that feature someone
> made where you could go to previous sibling, go to next sibling, go to
> last sibling, or go to parent. There is currently no easy way to do a
> lot of these things, and they come up time and time again.

These commands already exist, I believe, in the fold navigation commands
inherent in vim.

>
> Thanks
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

Noel

--

------------------------------------------------------------------
  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: A closer look at org-mode...

Matěj Cepl
In reply to this post by Joshua B.
"Joshua B." <[hidden email]> writes:

> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:50 AM, David J Patrick<[hidden email]> wrote:
> exportable/printable CANS. Even  now at the law firm I ssh out on the
> sly (putty on a usb stick) to a unix server and use an otl to manage
> my case load.

You know there is Windows version of gvim, right?

Matěj

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: A closer look at org-mode...

Joshua B.
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Matěj Cepl<[hidden email]> wrote:
> "Joshua B." <[hidden email]> writes:
>>  Even  now at the law firm I ssh out on the
>> sly (putty on a usb stick) to a unix server and use an otl to manage
>> my case load.
>
> You know there is Windows version of gvim, right?

Yes, I have that on the USB stick too but I haven't been sucessful
installing VO with it.  That would be handy.  However, what ever
happens I'll probably keep most of my task lists on a remote server
accessible by the internet (unlike my office workstation).

My other desired project is a cgi-based otl editor simple enough to
operate from my cell phone.  And by cell phone I'm talking a bargain
basement phone using a browser that barely reads WAP/ simple html.

I know some people have written some nifty javascript/cgi based otl
editors but I as I said - bargain basement.  :)
_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: A closer look at org-mode...

Tim Roberts
Joshua B. wrote:
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Matěj Cepl[hidden email] wrote:
  
"Joshua B." [hidden email] writes:
    
 Even  now at the law firm I ssh out on the
sly (putty on a usb stick) to a unix server and use an otl to manage
my case load.
      
You know there is Windows version of gvim, right?
    

Yes, I have that on the USB stick too but I haven't been sucessful
installing VO with it.  That would be handy.

Really?  I've used it for years on Windows, both with gvim 6.x and 7.x.  I've even have a couple of Python scripts to post-process things, just like all you lucky Linux dudes.
-- 
Tim Roberts, [hidden email]
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

_______________________________________________
VimOutliner mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
12