VO Easy

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VO Easy

Noel Henson
Everyone,

A version of VO that is easy for non-vim users has been requested a number
of times. Each time, interest dwindles quickly. To see if it's worth
persuing, can I get a virtual show of hands? So, whose interested?

For those unfamiliar with VO Easy, it's a plugin for VO that makes it work
like a standard application:

        Insert mode only
        CTRL and/or ALT keys replace ,, commands
        Tool bar with common functions
        Tear-off menus for lesser used functions
        More complete menus to access all VO commands
        Mousable (yuk!)

So for those interested and/or interested in helping, raise your virtual
hands.

Noel

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Re: VO Easy

Ben Armstrong
On Thu, 2005-10-27 at 06:35 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> A version of VO that is easy for non-vim users has been requested a number
> of times. Each time, interest dwindles quickly.

Well, there is certainly interest here, just lack of resources to devote
to making it happen.  I can certainly help in the discussion and testing
departments, though.

I just have no clear "mandate from above" to make this happen.  But I'm
sure if the software fell out of the sky onto my PC, and I showed it to
my boss, he'd want everyone to use it. :)

Ben
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Re: VO Easy

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
On Thursday 27 October 2005 09:35 am, Noel Henson wrote:

> Everyone,
>
> A version of VO that is easy for non-vim users has been requested a number
> of times. Each time, interest dwindles quickly. To see if it's worth
> persuing, can I get a virtual show of hands? So, whose interested?
>
> For those unfamiliar with VO Easy, it's a plugin for VO that makes it work
> like a standard application:
>
> Insert mode only
> CTRL and/or ALT keys replace ,, commands
> Tool bar with common functions
> Tear-off menus for lesser used functions
> More complete menus to access all VO commands
> Mousable (yuk!)
>
> So for those interested and/or interested in helping, raise your virtual
> hands.

I'm interested and will help. One thing -- is there a way we could have CTRL
and/or ALT keys *in addition to* comma comma commands?

I want to make sure VO Easy runs on Windows machines, and that its file format
is identical with VO Classic. Basically, I want to get my whole family
outlining.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Founder and acting president: GoLUG
http://www.golug.org
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Re: VO Easy

Noel Henson
On Thursday 27 October 2005 07:19 am, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Thursday 27 October 2005 09:35 am, Noel Henson wrote:
> > Everyone,
> >
> > A version of VO that is easy for non-vim users has been requested a
> > number of times. Each time, interest dwindles quickly. To see if it's
> > worth persuing, can I get a virtual show of hands? So, whose
> > interested?
> >
> > For those unfamiliar with VO Easy, it's a plugin for VO that makes it
> > work like a standard application:
> >
> > Insert mode only
> > CTRL and/or ALT keys replace ,, commands
> > Tool bar with common functions
> > Tear-off menus for lesser used functions
> > More complete menus to access all VO commands
> > Mousable (yuk!)
> >
> > So for those interested and/or interested in helping, raise your
> > virtual hands.
>
> I'm interested and will help. One thing -- is there a way we could have
> CTRL and/or ALT keys *in addition to* comma comma commands?

Possibly. When in Easy mode (in vim), normal and command modes disappear.  
I can't find a way to get a command prompt in easy mode.

>
> I want to make sure VO Easy runs on Windows machines, and that its file
> format is identical with VO Classic. Basically, I want to get my whole
> family outlining.

Of course. It will all be the same. Basically we are adding menus, CTRL/ALT
key mappings and going into easy mode.


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Re: VO Easy

Noel Henson
In reply to this post by Noel Henson
Well,

Who wants to make mapping suggestions to map the ,, commands to CTRL or ALT
keys or functions keys? Any Ideas?

Noel

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Re: VO Easy

Steve Litt
On Sunday 30 October 2005 02:24 pm, Noel Henson wrote:
> Well,
>
> Who wants to make mapping suggestions to map the ,, commands to CTRL or ALT
> keys or functions keys? Any Ideas?
>
> Noel

Why would one do that? ,, is 10 times faster than Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12, etc.
What I'd suggest is menu access to the commands, and then have the menu
selections tell their ,, commands so over time the user can go less for easy
and more for speed. When users see how fast ,, commands are, they'll start
switching over, a little at a time.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Founder and acting president: GoLUG
http://www.golug.org
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Re: VO Easy

Noel Henson
On Sunday 30 October 2005 12:33 pm, Steve Litt wrote:

> On Sunday 30 October 2005 02:24 pm, Noel Henson wrote:
> > Well,
> >
> > Who wants to make mapping suggestions to map the ,, commands to CTRL
> > or ALT keys or functions keys? Any Ideas?
> >
> > Noel
>
> Why would one do that? ,, is 10 times faster than Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12,
> etc. What I'd suggest is menu access to the commands, and then have the
> menu selections tell their ,, commands so over time the user can go less
> for easy and more for speed. When users see how fast ,, commands are,
> they'll start switching over, a little at a time.
>
> SteveT
>

The reason is that many ,, commands won't work correctly in an insert-only
environment. I also intend to use menus but I thought I'd take it a bit at
a time.

Noel

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  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

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Re: VO Easy

Ben Armstrong
On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 15:16 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> The reason is that many ,, commands won't work correctly in an insert-only
> environment. I also intend to use menus but I thought I'd take it a bit at
> a time.

Exactly.  Those commands won't work in Cream, for instance.  I hope that
"VO Easy" would provide a good starting point for building the Cream VO
plugin.  Also, I think the VO Easy users are not going to care so much
about efficiency.  If they did, they'd probably be perfectly happy with
standard VO.

Ben

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Re: VO Easy

Steve Litt
On Monday 31 October 2005 08:14 am, BG - Ben Armstrong wrote:

> On Sun, 2005-10-30 at 15:16 -0700, Noel Henson wrote:
> > The reason is that many ,, commands won't work correctly in an
> > insert-only environment. I also intend to use menus but I thought I'd
> > take it a bit at a time.
>
> Exactly.  Those commands won't work in Cream, for instance.  I hope that
> "VO Easy" would provide a good starting point for building the Cream VO
> plugin.  Also, I think the VO Easy users are not going to care so much
> about efficiency.  If they did, they'd probably be perfectly happy with
> standard VO.

My hope is that my family uses VO Easy as a stepping stone to VO. When I
started using Mozilla Composer (except back then it was called Netscape Gold)
I performed every task with the menu system. As time went on I learned
hotkeys. Now much of my Mozilla Composer work is done with hotkeys, and I'm
much more efficient. This is the transition I hope for with my family.

In other words, I think the desire for user friendliness is more a current
state of a human being than a property of the human being.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Founder and acting president: GoLUG
http://www.golug.org
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VO Easy: goals and audience

Ben Armstrong
On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 10:30 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> My hope is that my family uses VO Easy as a stepping stone to VO. When I
> started using Mozilla Composer (except back then it was called Netscape Gold)
> I performed every task with the menu system. As time went on I learned
> hotkeys. Now much of my Mozilla Composer work is done with hotkeys, and I'm
> much more efficient. This is the transition I hope for with my family.

Still, those hotkeys are of the Ctrl-, Ctrl-Shift-, and Alt- variety,
i.e. insert-mode oriented.  While I agree that there is a natural
progression of GUI-oriented initial use of an application towards using
more and more efficient ways of using that application, different users
will go different distances down that path.  I believe those who don't
go all of the way -- obviously in Mozilla Composer, you *can't* go all
of the way, since it is modeless, -- aren't necessarily that much worse
off than those who do.  It depends in part on how heavily the user
relies on the application, and in part how far they are willing to go to
in order to enjoy more efficient use of it.  Some people get off on that
sort of thing.  Others could care less.  They'll be happy as long as
they can get the job done without the application getting in the way.

> In other words, I think the desire for user friendliness is more a current
> state of a human being than a property of the human being.

I'd agree with that.  So, good luck on helping each of your family
members self-consciously alter that state.  I think it's a worthy goal,
and within the tight-knit family unit, you probably have a good chance
at pulling it off.  But in my office environment, unfortunately just
getting people to buy in to using Cream was a big enough challenge in
and of itself.  The fact that it was based on the modal Vim editor was a
barrier, not a help, and that Cream provided a way around it was the
only way I was able to be successful.  In other words, if I had to stop
and worry about changing the "state" of each of the human beings
involved in making the decision before they'd allow me to deliver a
superior text editor, I'd have never pulled it off.  I just don't exert
that much influence over them.  There were too many people in the way
with "veto power" over my idea, each of whom were far too busy and far
too ambivalent about my project to care.  A modal editor was just too
"alien" for them, no matter how compelling modal editing is from an
efficiency point of view.

So, back to this progression thing, and back to the reality of planning
how VO Easy should work and who the audience is.  I have no problem with
VO Easy working with comma-comma commands.  I have no problem with it
being a stepping-stone to pure VO.  But I'd like the Cream users to be
considered by the project too.  VO Easy is somewhere along the curve
from "status quo" (i.e. completely dependent on the GUI) to "power GUI
user" (i.e. knows how to use some key shortcuts) to "superpowered
user" (i.e. knows how to use a modal editor).  What slice of this
spectrum is VO Easy going to tackle?  I think we agree on "somewhere in
the middle," but I haven't a clear notion of where to draw the lines.
Can VO Easy be made flexible enough to allow users to start with the
familiar, and then follow this path as far as they wish?  Or should VO
Easy just focus on a tiny bit of GUI assistance to bridge that final
step from GUI to "superpowered user"?

Honestly, I don't know.  Maybe it is best that VO Easy only support the
comma-comma way, and then we only introduce more "conventional" key
mappings in the Cream plugin, where it makes sense to do so.

Ben

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