Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

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Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Tom Purl 2
Task:  Wiki Format Sign-Off
Deadline:  Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)

Overview
========

We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
will be creating and editing tips in the future.  Before we can finally
decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
format for tips.

The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
following URL:

* http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest

The following tips should stand out:

* http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
* http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2

This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
(http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
the Template:Tip2 template
(http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).

Requested Actions
=================

Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
provide constructive criticism for that tip's format.  There's no such
thing as a dumb comment.

My Two Cents
============

I really like VimTip1_v2, which uses the Tip2 template.  Here's what I
like:

* No special formatting for commands or any other preformatted text.  I
  think that this is an essential requirement for the initial conversion
  effort.
* Easy to read
* Succinct

How do you want to handle comments?  Typically on a Mediawiki site, you
sign you comments like so:

    This is so cool! ~~~~
    ----

Which is then saved to the page like this:

    This is so cool! Tpurl 15:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a little ugly, but it's the norm in the wiki world.

What do you guys think?

Tom Purl


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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

fREW Schmidt
On 5/15/07, Tom Purl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Task:  Wiki Format Sign-Off
> Deadline:  Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
>
> Overview
> ========
>
> We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
> will be creating and editing tips in the future.  Before we can finally
> decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
> format for tips.
>
> The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
> following URL:
>
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
>
> The following tips should stand out:
>
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
>
> This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
> (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
> the Template:Tip2 template
> (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
>
> Requested Actions
> =================
>
> Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
> provide constructive criticism for that tip's format.  There's no such
> thing as a dumb comment.
>
> My Two Cents
> ============
>
> I really like VimTip1_v2, which uses the Tip2 template.  Here's what I
> like:
>
> * No special formatting for commands or any other preformatted text.  I
>   think that this is an essential requirement for the initial conversion
>   effort.
> * Easy to read
> * Succinct
>
> How do you want to handle comments?  Typically on a Mediawiki site, you
> sign you comments like so:
>
>     This is so cool! ~~~~
>     ----
>
> Which is then saved to the page like this:
>
>     This is so cool! Tpurl 15:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It's a little ugly, but it's the norm in the wiki world.
>
> What do you guys think?
>
> Tom Purl
>
>

I think you are right about the comments.  It doesn't look like the
best thing ever, but it will work fine for a wiki.  People will
probably leave off the ~~~~ sometimes and that will probably be
something that we will have to live with.  I think that there is
probably a way that we can make a reminder for people to put that
there after comments, but I don't think we could easily require it.
Also, it should be obvious that I prefer the Tip2 template ;-)

-fREW
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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Martin Krischik
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2
Am Dienstag 15 Mai 2007 schrieb Tom Purl:

> Task:  Wiki Format Sign-Off
> Deadline:  Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)

I like Template 2 more.

> How do you want to handle comments?  Typically on a Mediawiki site, you
> sign you comments like so:
>
>     This is so cool! ~~~~
>     ----
>
> Which is then saved to the page like this:
>
>     This is so cool! Tpurl 15:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
>    
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
>
> It's a little ugly, but it's the norm in the wiki world.
Comment should go to the discussion page. There ugly signatures won't matter
there. Also comments are often threaded - which is even uglier - but again -
won't matter that much on the discussion page.

The Main page should only contain the clean and simple tip.

Martin
--
Martin Krischik
mailto://[hidden email]

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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Gary Johnson
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2
On 2007-05-15, Tom Purl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Task:  Wiki Format Sign-Off
> Deadline:  Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
>
> Overview
> ========
>
> We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
> will be creating and editing tips in the future.  Before we can finally
> decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
> format for tips.
>
> The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
> following URL:
>
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
>
> The following tips should stand out:
>
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
>
> This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
> (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
> the Template:Tip2 template
> (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
>
> Requested Actions
> =================
>
> Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
> provide constructive criticism for that tip's format.  There's no such
> thing as a dumb comment.

I much prefer "VimTip1 v2".  Whether just browsing tips or reading
tips I've searched for, I want to be able to read it quickly without
having to scan through a bunch of boilerplate.  I would even
advocate a Synopsis line that would summarize the tip if the title
didn't already do so.  I like having the meta data collected as it
is in one line at the bottom of the tip:  it's concise and in an
unobtrusive yet consistent and easy-to-find location.

In the table of contents, each tip really needs to have the title
alongside its number.  The first page,
http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest, is lacking that, unless
the names there (e.g., VimTip123) are just place holders for real
titles.  I really don't want to have to load each tip page one at a
time to browse the latest contributions.

My $0.02.

Regards,
Gary

--
Gary Johnson                 | Agilent Technologies
[hidden email]     | Mobile Broadband Division
                             | Spokane, Washington, USA
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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

fREW Schmidt
On 5/15/07, Gary Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2007-05-15, Tom Purl <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Task:  Wiki Format Sign-Off
> > Deadline:  Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
> >
> > Overview
> > ========
> >
> > We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
> > will be creating and editing tips in the future.  Before we can finally
> > decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
> > format for tips.
> >
> > The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
> > following URL:
> >
> > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
> >
> > The following tips should stand out:
> >
> > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
> > * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
> >
> > This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
> > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
> > the Template:Tip2 template
> > (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
> >
> > Requested Actions
> > =================
> >
> > Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
> > provide constructive criticism for that tip's format.  There's no such
> > thing as a dumb comment.
>
> I much prefer "VimTip1 v2".  Whether just browsing tips or reading
> tips I've searched for, I want to be able to read it quickly without
> having to scan through a bunch of boilerplate.  I would even
> advocate a Synopsis line that would summarize the tip if the title
> didn't already do so.  I like having the meta data collected as it
> is in one line at the bottom of the tip:  it's concise and in an
> unobtrusive yet consistent and easy-to-find location.
>
> In the table of contents, each tip really needs to have the title
> alongside its number.  The first page,
> http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest, is lacking that, unless
> the names there (e.g., VimTip123) are just place holders for real
> titles.  I really don't want to have to load each tip page one at a
> time to browse the latest contributions.
>
> My $0.02.
>
> Regards,
> Gary
>
> --
> Gary Johnson                 | Agilent Technologies
> [hidden email]     | Mobile Broadband Division
>                              | Spokane, Washington, USA
>

I don't know how to add pages to that dynamic page there if they have
already been created, but I made [1] with template [2] so that it
would work better if you just wanted to see the titles of pages.  The
only problem is that this would require more work if we wanted to
scrape the wiki at some point.  Anyway, if we WERE to do this, this is
how I envision it working:
1: User creates a new page using Template:Tip3 (or 2 or whatever)
2: They leave the id blank because it will be ignored
3: At some specified interval, a cron job runs that will scrape the
source of any newly created pages and sort them in a chronological
list
4: The program in the cron job moves each new tip to: #{generated id} - #{title}

And then we could probably have another program that would run say,
once a week that would iterate through the entire tip list ensuring
that people didn't do something silly, like change the numbers.  I
presume that we would have to use the history and then look at the
initial creation of the page to ensure correct times and whatnot.

I can still see why we would want to use the format:
Tip1
Tip2
...
Tip10
...
but it makes sense to have the names show the titles (or more
obviously, the titles should BE the names).

What do you guys think?
[1] http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/1_-_the_super_star
[2] http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip3
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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Muskoka Auto Parts Limited
In reply to this post by Gary Johnson
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Hash: SHA1

On 15-May-07, at 3:02 PM, Gary Johnson wrote:

>>
>> Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and  
>> then
>> provide constructive criticism for that tip's format.  There's no  
>> such
>> thing as a dumb comment.
>
> I much prefer "VimTip1 v2".  Whether just browsing tips or reading
> tips I've searched for, I want to be able to read it quickly without
> having to scan through a bunch of boilerplate.  I would even
> advocate a Synopsis line that would summarize the tip if the title
> didn't already do so.  I like having the meta data collected as it
> is in one line at the bottom of the tip:  it's concise and in an
> unobtrusive yet consistent and easy-to-find location.

I have to say that I prefer the Metadata at the top, but I agree the  
giant table is a bit much.
How about a blend of the two?

I quickly created http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip4
but I didn't figure out how to get tip 1 to use that template.
Editing tip 1 starts editing the template. - Where do I assign it....

Brian
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RE: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Zdenek Sekera
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Purl [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 15 May 2007 17:24
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline
>
> Task:  Wiki Format Sign-Off
> Deadline:  Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
>
> Overview
> ========
>
> We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
> will be creating and editing tips in the future.  Before we can finally
> decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a
> page
> format for tips.
>
> The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
> following URL:
>
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
>
> The following tips should stand out:
>
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
>
My preference goes to the v2, more concise.

> This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
> (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip
> uses
> the Template:Tip2 template
> (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
>

- Tip2 template is seems fine to me.
- Who will or how it will be decided what are the different
  'complexity' (what terms will be allowed)?
- I find little inconvenient that when I want to add a comment
  I can't have the original tip (and perhaps other comments)
  in front of my eyes (maybe to scroll it manually) but that
  may be unsolvable
- it could be useful to have a possibility to have a button
  saying 'Add a new tip' on every tip page so when I want
  to add a tip I don't have to start from a different page.
  That, too, may not be possible, correct?


> Requested Actions
> =================
>
> Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
> provide constructive criticism for that tip's format.  There's no such
> thing as a dumb comment.
>
> My Two Cents
> ============
>
> I really like VimTip1_v2, which uses the Tip2 template.  Here's what I
> like:
>
> * No special formatting for commands or any other preformatted text.  I
>   think that this is an essential requirement for the initial
> conversion
>   effort.
> * Easy to read
> * Succinct
>
Just what I meant above.

> How do you want to handle comments?  Typically on a Mediawiki site, you
> sign you comments like so:
>
>     This is so cool! ~~~~
>     ----
>
> Which is then saved to the page like this:
>
>     This is so cool! Tpurl 15:17, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
>     -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------
>
> It's a little ugly, but it's the norm in the wiki world.
>
> What do you guys think?
:-) little ugly, yes. Alternatives?

The whole thing seems to really be moving now in the right
direction IMHO. Keep it up!

Cheers,

---Zdenek


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RE: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Sebastian Menge
Am Mittwoch, den 16.05.2007, 09:43 +0200 schrieb Zdenek Sekera:
> - Tip2 template is seems fine to me.
> - Who will or how it will be decided what are the different
>   'complexity' (what terms will be allowed)?

I also vote for v2 (though i wrote v1 :-) )

And lets dont forget, that the layout of the template can be changed
always at a later time. So its no problem if we use a suboptimal
template for the beginning ... More important is that the fields keep
consistent ...


> - I find little inconvenient that when I want to add a comment
>   I can't have the original tip (and perhaps other comments)
>   in front of my eyes (maybe to scroll it manually) but that
>   may be unsolvable
> - it could be useful to have a possibility to have a button
>   saying 'Add a new tip' on every tip page so when I want
>   to add a tip I don't have to start from a different page.
>   That, too, may not be possible, correct?

There is already a "Add Tip" Button on
http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest . If you try that out, you will
find some instructions on the top. These are freely editable at
http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/TipInstructions .

When using this "AddTip" approach, people have to invent their own
pagename. (autoincrementig the tip-id seems to be impossible)

Therefore, I would vote for using  tip-title == page-title and let the
categorization be done by [[Category:VimTip]]. Using Wikipedia standards
(CamelCaseIsUgly) we would get pages like "The Super Star" and we could
reuse the title in the template. We would loose the tip-id for new tips.
But that seems to be unavoidable. And what is the id good for anyways?
Using a cron job to convert tips wont work, because we have no access to
the host.

Sebastian.

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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

A. S. Budden
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2
On 15/05/07, Tom Purl <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Task:  Wiki Format Sign-Off
> Deadline:  Monday, May 21st (arbitrary, I know)
>
> Overview
> ========
>
> We've had some great, constructive discussions lately regarding how we
> will be creating and editing tips in the future.  Before we can finally
> decide how this is going to work, however, we need to decide upon a page
> format for tips.
>
> The most recently-updated wiki tip examples can be found at the
> following URL:
>
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTest
>
> The following tips should stand out:
>
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1
> * http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/VimTip1_v2
>
> This first tip uses the Template:Tip template
> (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip), and the second tip uses
> the Template:Tip2 template
> (http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Tip2).
>
> Requested Actions
> =================
>
> Please take a look at these tips, decide which one you prefer, and then
> provide constructive criticism for that tip's format.  There's no such
> thing as a dumb comment.
[snip]
> What do you guys think?

My vote definitely goes for version two (which seems to correspond
with most people on the list).  The nice thing about using a template
though, is that if at some point later down the line a change is
considered desirable, the template can be changed and hopefully this
will update all the tips (depending on how drastic the change is of
course!)

I guess this is either me being daft or something strange about the
setup, but at the moment, if you click the "edit" button on the
right-hand side in line with either "Comments" or "Tip: #1 - the super
star", it edits the template rather than the tip!

Regards,

Al
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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

John Beckett
In reply to this post by Sebastian Menge
Sebastian Menge wrote:
> Therefore, I would vote for using tip-title == page-title and
> let the categorization be done by [[Category:VimTip]]. Using
> Wikipedia standards (CamelCaseIsUgly) we would get pages like
> "The Super Star" and we could reuse the title in the template.
> We would lose the tip-id for new tips.

Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.

But more than that. I hope that the wiki tips really will be
edited and improved. Currently, there are lots of tips that are
of very marginal value, and there are several related tips.

I hope that unhelpful tips will be brutally deleted, and related
tips will be merged (if that doesn't make the new tip too big).
In other words, we should end up with many missing tip numbers.

If all tips are retained for nostalgic reasons, the usefulness
of the whole site will be reduced due to the growing amount of
cruft that would obscure the helpful tips.

Re the tip URL, what would you recommend for this:
List of text editors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_text_editors

Will it be possible to edit the URL of a link, in order to
simplify it? For example, I don't like:
Optimization (mathematics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimization_%28mathematics%29

I've seen much worse URLs, but can't find one now.

John

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RE: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Gene Kwiecinski
>Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
>is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
>point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.

Is there any equivalent to javascript's document.lastModified?

Can create a "serial number" based on the date of submission, then
rearrange by fields to a sortable ID, eg 2007.05.15.23.53 for a tip
created yesterday at 23:53.

Don't need dots, or hyphens, or anything, as 2007051523353 would be
fine, too.  The odds of having 2 tips be submitted in the same minute
would be remote.
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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

A.J.Mechelynck
Gene Kwiecinski wrote:

>> Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
>> is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
>> point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.
>
> Is there any equivalent to javascript's document.lastModified?
>
> Can create a "serial number" based on the date of submission, then
> rearrange by fields to a sortable ID, eg 2007.05.15.23.53 for a tip
> created yesterday at 23:53.
>
> Don't need dots, or hyphens, or anything, as 2007051523353 would be
> fine, too.  The odds of having 2 tips be submitted in the same minute
> would be remote.
>
>

I don't think so. A minute is sixty seconds, and sooner or later we'll have
two different users submitting tips less than sixty (or even thirty) seconds
away from each other. Even adding the seconds to the ID doesn't clear the
problem, it lowers the probability but doesn't make it zero. With enough
Vimmers adding tips, sooner or later there'll be a clash.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
If the odds are a million to one against something occurring, chances
are 50-50 it will.
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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

fREW Schmidt
On 5/16/07, A.J.Mechelynck <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gene Kwiecinski wrote:
> >> Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
> >> is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
> >> point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.
> >
> > Is there any equivalent to javascript's document.lastModified?
> >
> > Can create a "serial number" based on the date of submission, then
> > rearrange by fields to a sortable ID, eg 2007.05.15.23.53 for a tip
> > created yesterday at 23:53.
> >
> > Don't need dots, or hyphens, or anything, as 2007051523353 would be
> > fine, too.  The odds of having 2 tips be submitted in the same minute
> > would be remote.
> >
> >
>
> I don't think so. A minute is sixty seconds, and sooner or later we'll have
> two different users submitting tips less than sixty (or even thirty) seconds
> away from each other. Even adding the seconds to the ID doesn't clear the
> problem, it lowers the probability but doesn't make it zero. With enough
> Vimmers adding tips, sooner or later there'll be a clash.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Tony.
> --
> If the odds are a million to one against something occurring, chances
> are 50-50 it will.
>

I still think we could automate it with a cron job.  It doesn't have
to be run on wikia.  I don't think it would be that hard to scrape and
moving a tip is even simpler.  So you just move all the tips created
since the last run of the cron job and move them to "$id - $title"

-fREW
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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Martin Krischik
In reply to this post by John Beckett
Am Mittwoch 16 Mai 2007 schrieb John Beckett:

> Thinking about how a wiki works shows that keeping tip numbers
> is doomed. First, there is no auto-increment id, and as you
> point out, there is no reasonable way to automate fixes.

But do we need an id? - each tip will have a page name which will be unique.

Personally - when I see such question - I begin to think that the Vim Wiki
will die soon - again!

"Content first" is makes Wikis successfull. The "Vim Wiki" project is talking
to much about ID numbers, templates, organization etc. pp. without producing
any content.

"Ada Programming" has not have become "Book of the Month", "Features Book" and
is generally quoted as an one of the best Wikibooks around (Even from those
who don't program in Ada) because we discussed for weeks about structural
details.

In fact: Almost nothing was discussed longer then 3 days and if there was no
*stiff* opposition then one of the Authors went ahead and just did it. And
lots of stuff was never discussed: Somebody just did it and the other fell in
line - plainly because it was a good idea.

Martin
--
Martin Krischik
mailto://[hidden email]

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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

John Beckett
Martin Krischik wrote:
> But do we need an id? - each tip will have a page name
> which will be unique.

IMHO you are correct - we should NOT have a tip id.

I'm not sure what is feasible, but here is my ideal:
- Import current tip_nr into the template.
- Display tip_nr near the top of the tip, very modestly.
- When we're ready to abandon ids, stop displaying tip_nr.

> "Content first" is makes Wikis successfull. The "Vim Wiki"
> project is talking to much about ID numbers, templates,
> organization etc. pp. without producing any content.

You're talking a lot of sense, Martin. However, someone is going
to import 1500 tips, so I can put up with a bit more planning.
But if there's no action before June, I think it would be
reasonable to despair<g>.

John

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Vim Wiki - Tip id and URL

John Beckett
In reply to this post by Gene Kwiecinski
It is important for us to have an easy way to refer to tips,
and the URL of each tip should be simple (and not wrap in an
email).

Below is some detail for a proposal to achieve this.
What does everyone think?

Have a script scrape tip titles from the current Vim Tips.
Create a plain text file with fields (say tab-separated):
  <tip_nr><tip_id><tip_name>

<tip_id> would initially be empty.

Example:
  Tip #1504: External commands on Windows
  http://www.vim.org/tips/tip.php?tip_id=1504

would give line (':' represents '\t'):
  1504::External commands on Windows

I would edit this file (or maybe split it over three
volunteers). We would manually insert a short tip_id by
abbreviating tip_name. For example:
  1504:win_external_cmd:External commands on Windows

We would manually confirm (with a script) that the 1500
tip_id fields are unique.

The script to import each tip would read the above file:
- Use tip_nr to read the current tip.
- Use tip_id to make the URL of the new tip.
- Ignore tip_name.

The example URL might be:
http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/tips/win_external_cmd

Perhaps a contents page could list all tips:
  win_external_cmd    External commands on Windows

Where we might once have said "see tip 1504", we would instead
say "see tip win_external_cmd".

John

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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip id and URL

A.J.Mechelynck
John Beckett wrote:

> It is important for us to have an easy way to refer to tips,
> and the URL of each tip should be simple (and not wrap in an
> email).
>
> Below is some detail for a proposal to achieve this.
> What does everyone think?
>
> Have a script scrape tip titles from the current Vim Tips.
> Create a plain text file with fields (say tab-separated):
>  <tip_nr><tip_id><tip_name>
>
> <tip_id> would initially be empty.
>
> Example:
>  Tip #1504: External commands on Windows
>  http://www.vim.org/tips/tip.php?tip_id=1504
>
> would give line (':' represents '\t'):
>  1504::External commands on Windows
>
> I would edit this file (or maybe split it over three
> volunteers). We would manually insert a short tip_id by
> abbreviating tip_name. For example:
>  1504:win_external_cmd:External commands on Windows
>
> We would manually confirm (with a script) that the 1500
> tip_id fields are unique.
>
> The script to import each tip would read the above file:
> - Use tip_nr to read the current tip.
> - Use tip_id to make the URL of the new tip.
> - Ignore tip_name.
>
> The example URL might be:
> http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/tips/win_external_cmd
>
> Perhaps a contents page could list all tips:
>  win_external_cmd    External commands on Windows
>
> Where we might once have said "see tip 1504", we would instead
> say "see tip win_external_cmd".
>
> John
>

Wouldn't it be enough to set up the main tip page with a tip _name_ (which
would be the current "title" of the tip, or a disambiguation page if there are
more than one tip with the same title), and have the tip _number_ (only for
tips imported from Vim-online) refer to a redirect page, let's say "Vim tip 1"
=> "The super star"? So the conversion script could convert "vimtip#1" to
"[[Vim tip 1]]", which could be done mechanically, and the redirect would
automagically resend anyone clicking that link to the actual page. I suppose
that links pointing to the redirect pages could be readjusted later, in no
hurry, either by hand or by a "wiki robot", and in either case with the help
of the "What points here" page for the redirect.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
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RE: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Gene Kwiecinski
In reply to this post by A.J.Mechelynck
>>Is there any equivalent to javascript's document.lastModified?
>>Can create a "serial number" based on the date of submission, then
>>rearrange by fields to a sortable ID, eg 2007.05.15.23.53 for a tip
>>created yesterday at 23:53.
>>Don't need dots, or hyphens, or anything, as 2007051523353 would be
>>fine, too.  The odds of having 2 tips be submitted in the same minute
>>would be remote.

>I don't think so. A minute is sixty seconds, and sooner or later we'll
have
>two different users submitting tips less than sixty (or even thirty)
seconds
>away from each other. Even adding the seconds to the ID doesn't clear
the
>problem, it lowers the probability but doesn't make it zero. With
enough
>Vimmers adding tips, sooner or later there'll be a clash.

Okay, so can probably have something like

        if exist N
                N++

to make sure that when "naming"(?) a tip, there's no name-collision.
Gotta be *somewhere* to put in the smarts to avoid name-collisions, no?

Or if each tip is a file, then a name-collision would be attempting to
overwrite an existing file, and a cookie or something could make sure
that doesn't happen, ie, only write the actual tip you're working on.

Like I said, I have no idea about the mechanisms in use to create wikis
or edit entries, etc., so I'm just flinging ideas at the wall to see
what sticks, if anything.  Someone more versed in wikiing might put 2+2
together and say, "Hey, we might not be able to do *that*, but along
those lines, we might be able to do *this*...", and viola! (or cello, or
some other stringed instrument...)
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RE: Vim Wiki - Tip Page Formatting Deadline

Gene Kwiecinski
In reply to this post by Martin Krischik
>In fact: Almost nothing was discussed longer then 3 days and
>if there was no *stiff* opposition then one of the Authors
>went ahead and just did it. And lots of stuff was never
>discussed: Somebody just did it and the other fell in line -
>plainly because it was a good idea.

Hey, that's what *I* said...  :D
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Re: Vim Wiki - Tip id and URL

John Beckett
In reply to this post by A.J.Mechelynck
A.J.Mechelynck wrote:

> Wouldn't it be enough to set up the main tip page with a
> tip _name_ (which would be the current "title" of the tip, or
> a disambiguation page if there are more than one tip with the
> same title), and have the tip _number_ (only for tips imported
> from Vim-online) refer to a redirect page, let's say "Vim tip
> 1" => "The super star"? So the conversion script could convert
> "vimtip#1" to "[[Vim tip 1]]", which could be done
> mechanically, and the redirect would automagically resend
> anyone clicking that link to the actual page. I suppose that
> links pointing to the redirect pages could be readjusted
> later, in no hurry, either by hand or by a "wiki robot", and
> in either case with the help of the "What points here" page
> for the redirect.

Would someone who understands wiki procedures please describe
how the URL for a tip would be generated. What is actually
achievable? Can a URL be changed later without much effort?

Can we have a redirect as Tony outlines above?

I proposed devising a short id for each tip (like "super_star"
for tip 1), then using that tip_id in the URL.

That would avoid ugly URLs which would wrap in an email, or
which would contain stuff like %20, making the URL hard to read.

Is my concern (that we should avoid long ugly URLs) misguided?

John

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