VimTips Wiki: New Direction

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VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Tom Purl 2
Here's my view of "where we are" regarding the Vim Tips wiki conversion
project:

1. The Google wiki seems to be a poor option due to the difficulty
   involved in registering.
2. Multiple other wiki engines have been discussed, and the clear
   favorite seems to be a site built on top of the Mediawiki
   application.
3. Of all of the sites that offer free wiki hosting using Mediawiki,
   Wikibooks seems to be the most favored.

Note: These are all my opinions based on what I've read.  I hope to hear
from everyone that has a different perspective :)

Ok, so based on my version of reality, I think that we should proceed with
the following actions:

0. I'll create the following page on the Vim Tips chapter of the Vim book
on Wikibooks (whew!):
    * http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
1. All of the people who wrote tip conversion scripts before should
   update them so that the output format is "Wikipedia markup", not
"Google markup"
    * I apologize to the script writers for making them do more work.
      Hopefully, the necessary changes to your scripts will be small.
    * Also, please note that I _don't_ think that anyone should
      contribute a new script to this effort.  We already have three very
capable scripts that can probably get the job done very well, so I don't
think that the effort would be worthwhile for anyone else.
2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed
   above.
3. The vim community will come to a consensus on the best format for the
   tips, and we will use the best script for the job.
4. Consensus achieved!!!
5. We will automate the task of converting all of the tips.
6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make sure
   that they look good.
7. The invisible hand of The Wiki will then gradually make our wonderful
   collection of Vim tips even more awesome than they've ever been before! ;D

So, what do you guys think?

Tom Purl








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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Muskoka Auto Parts Limited
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On 5-Mar-07, at 2:26 PM, Tom Purl wrote:

> Here's my view of "where we are" regarding the Vim Tips wiki  
> conversion
> project:
{snippage}
Seems about right to me Tom!

> 6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make  
> sure
>    that they look good.

Mark me down as a volunteer for this stage... ( erp - did I say that  
out loud? :-)

Brian
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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Bram Moolenaar
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2

Tom Purl summarized:

> Here's my view of "where we are" regarding the Vim Tips wiki conversion
> project:
>
> 1. The Google wiki seems to be a poor option due to the difficulty
>    involved in registering.
> 2. Multiple other wiki engines have been discussed, and the clear
>    favorite seems to be a site built on top of the Mediawiki
>    application.
> 3. Of all of the sites that offer free wiki hosting using Mediawiki,
>    Wikibooks seems to be the most favored.
>
> Note: These are all my opinions based on what I've read.  I hope to hear
> from everyone that has a different perspective :)
>
> Ok, so based on my version of reality, I think that we should proceed with
> the following actions:
>
> 0. I'll create the following page on the Vim Tips chapter of the Vim book
> on Wikibooks (whew!):
>     * http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
> 1. All of the people who wrote tip conversion scripts before should
>    update them so that the output format is "Wikipedia markup", not
> "Google markup"
>     * I apologize to the script writers for making them do more work.
>       Hopefully, the necessary changes to your scripts will be small.
>     * Also, please note that I _don't_ think that anyone should
>       contribute a new script to this effort.  We already have three very
> capable scripts that can probably get the job done very well, so I don't
> think that the effort would be worthwhile for anyone else.
> 2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed
>    above.
> 3. The vim community will come to a consensus on the best format for the
>    tips, and we will use the best script for the job.
> 4. Consensus achieved!!!
> 5. We will automate the task of converting all of the tips.
> 6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make sure
>    that they look good.
> 7. The invisible hand of The Wiki will then gradually make our wonderful
>    collection of Vim tips even more awesome than they've ever been before! ;D
>
> So, what do you guys think?

Sounds great to me.

I'm still a bit worried about spammers, since that is what broke down
the current tip collection.  Perhaps someone can look into this, so that
the scripts we use for conversion do the right thing?

--
hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
258. When you want to see your girlfriend, you surf to her homepage.

 /// Bram Moolenaar -- [hidden email] -- http://www.Moolenaar.net   \\\
///        sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Ali Polatel-2
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2
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Hash: SHA1

Hi everyone,

* Tom Purl ([hidden email]) wrote:
> Here's my view of "where we are" regarding the Vim Tips wiki conversion
> project:
>
> 1. The Google wiki seems to be a poor option due to the difficulty
>    involved in registering.

Yeah it also has problems with html entities which Mediawiki doesn't
seem to have.

> 2. Multiple other wiki engines have been discussed, and the clear
>    favorite seems to be a site built on top of the Mediawiki
>    application.

Yay!

> 3. Of all of the sites that offer free wiki hosting using Mediawiki,
>    Wikibooks seems to be the most favored.
>
> Note: These are all my opinions based on what I've read.  I hope to hear
> from everyone that has a different perspective :)
>

We share the same opinions :-)

> Ok, so based on my version of reality, I think that we should proceed with
> the following actions:
>
> 0. I'll create the following page on the Vim Tips chapter of the Vim book
> on Wikibooks (whew!):
>     * http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
> 1. All of the people who wrote tip conversion scripts before should
>    update them so that the output format is "Wikipedia markup", not
> "Google markup"

  I don't know much about Wikipedia stuff but I wrote a basic version.I'll
appreciate any help to make it better.

>     * I apologize to the script writers for making them do more work.
>       Hopefully, the necessary changes to your scripts will be small.

  Well , considering the possible difficulties we were going to have with google
wiki we actually need to thank you for the change

>     * Also, please note that I _don't_ think that anyone should
>       contribute a new script to this effort.  We already have three very
> capable scripts that can probably get the job done very well, so I don't
> think that the effort would be worthwhile for anyone else.
> 2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed
>    above.

I converted vimtips.py , you can find it at google svn:
http://vimtips.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/scripts/vimtips.py
(at least we can still use svn right ;)

And check out
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
to see how it parsed tip #1.

> 3. The vim community will come to a consensus on the best format for the
>    tips, and we will use the best script for the job.

Any help is appreciated.

> 4. Consensus achieved!!!
> 5. We will automate the task of converting all of the tips.
> 6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make sure
>    that they look good.
> 7. The invisible hand of The Wiki will then gradually make our wonderful
>    collection of Vim tips even more awesome than they've ever been before! ;D
>
> So, what do you guys think?
>

Well I think it's a great decision.

Ali

- --
Ali Polatel (hawking) <[hidden email]>
http://hawking.nonlogic.org/
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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Tom Purl 2
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2
> Would you please give me an url or something so I may learn the
> Wikipedia markup?

:) Easier said than done.  I've actually had problems finding a complete
list in the past.  Here's the best resource I could find:

* http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_Markup

Also, please note that there are Python and Perl libraries for
converting HTML to mediawiki markup and vice-versa, if that's of any
help.

Thanks!

Tom Purl


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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Tom Purl 2
In reply to this post by Bram Moolenaar
> Bram Mooleanaar summarized:
>
> I'm still a bit worried about spammers, since that is what broke down
> the current tip collection.  Perhaps someone can look into this, so that
> the scripts we use for conversion do the right thing?

I looked into the anti-spam features of Wikibooks, and they basically do
the basics: blacklists for abusers and easy rollbacks.  So the top 2% of
spammers/vandalizers will be blocked, and it will be easy for the admins
to roll back the problems created by the outher 98%.

So will that be effective?  Eh, maybe.  It seems to be effective enough
for a lot of Wikibooks, and we *do* have experts on this mailing list
(*cough* Martin Krischik *cough*) so I would love to hear their
perspectives :)

I don't think that the conversion effort will be wasted, even if
we don't end up using Wikibooks as our wiki host.  The two top hosts in
my eyes are Wikibooks and Wikia, and they both use the Mediawiki wiki
engine.  Also, many other wiki engines support the Mediawiki markup
language, so I think we're future-proofing our content by using this
markup language.  From my experience, it's definitely the de facto
standard.

Thanks!

Tom Purl


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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Tom Purl 2
In reply to this post by Ali Polatel-2
Ali Polatel said:

>> 2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed
>>    above.
>
> I converted vimtips.py , you can find it at google svn:
> http://vimtips.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/scripts/vimtips.py
> (at least we can still use svn right ;)
>
> And check out
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
> to see how it parsed tip #1.

Looks like a great start Ali!  I wanted to use that page as the "center"
of the project for now, so I refactored tip number one into its own
page:

*
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star

Also, I left comments on the output of your script on the "talk" page
for that page.

> Well I think it's a great decision.

Thanks!  I would take more credit but I'm just repeating what almost
everyone else said.

Thanks again!

Tom Purl


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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Tom Purl 2
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2
>> Bram Mooleanaar summarized:
>>
>> I'm still a bit worried about spammers, since that is what broke down
>> the current tip collection.  Perhaps someone can look into this, so that
>> the scripts we use for conversion do the right thing?
>
> I looked into the anti-spam features of Wikibooks, and they basically do
> the basics: blacklists for abusers and easy rollbacks.  So the top 2% of
> spammers/vandalizers will be blocked, and it will be easy for the admins
> to roll back the problems created by the outher 98%.

I also just noticed that the site forces you to enter a captcha if you
enter add a link to a wiki page.  I know that captchas aren't the
perfect solution, but this probably helps a little bit with spam.

Tom Purl

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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Spencer Collyer
In reply to this post by Ali Polatel-2
On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:18:13 +0200, Ali Polatel wrote:
> And check out
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
> to see how it parsed tip #1.

Looks good. Only comment I have is it might be better if the 'By' and
'On' lines for the comments were on the same line. Anything that allows
more useful info on a screen at once is an improvement in my eyes.

Spencer

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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

John Beckett
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2
Tom Purl wrote:
> I looked into the anti-spam features of Wikibooks, and they basically do
> the basics: blacklists for abusers and easy rollbacks.  So the top 2% of
> spammers/vandalizers will be blocked, and it will be easy for the admins
> to roll back the problems created by the outher 98%.

Wikibooks sounds good.

I wonder if it would be worth looking for a volunteer to occasionally take
a snapshot of the wiki as an emergency backup. Presumably wget or
similar would be adequate, or maybe there is an easy way to get the
mediawiki source.

Such a backup might be useful in a few weeks, and then perhaps monthly.

John

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RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Zdenek Sekera
In reply to this post by Spencer Collyer
> -----Original Message-----

> From: Spencer Collyer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 06 March 2007 08:31
> Cc: Vim Mailing List
> Subject: Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
>
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:18:13 +0200, Ali Polatel wrote:
> > And check out
> > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
> > to see how it parsed tip #1.
>
> Looks good. Only comment I have is it might be better if the 'By' and
> 'On' lines for the comments were on the same line. Anything
> that allows
> more useful info on a screen at once is an improvement in my eyes.
Yes, I very much agree, use screen real estate for useful info
as much as possible. Otherwise good IMHO!

---Zdenek

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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Hari Krishna Dara
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2

On Mon, 5 Mar 2007 at 1:26pm, Tom Purl wrote:

> Here's my view of "where we are" regarding the Vim Tips wiki conversion
> project:
>
> 1. The Google wiki seems to be a poor option due to the difficulty
>    involved in registering.
> 2. Multiple other wiki engines have been discussed, and the clear
>    favorite seems to be a site built on top of the Mediawiki
>    application.
> 3. Of all of the sites that offer free wiki hosting using Mediawiki,
>    Wikibooks seems to be the most favored.
>
> Note: These are all my opinions based on what I've read.  I hope to hear
> from everyone that has a different perspective :)
>
> Ok, so based on my version of reality, I think that we should proceed with
> the following actions:
>
> 0. I'll create the following page on the Vim Tips chapter of the Vim book
> on Wikibooks (whew!):
>     * http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
> 1. All of the people who wrote tip conversion scripts before should
>    update them so that the output format is "Wikipedia markup", not
> "Google markup"
>     * I apologize to the script writers for making them do more work.
>       Hopefully, the necessary changes to your scripts will be small.
>     * Also, please note that I _don't_ think that anyone should
>       contribute a new script to this effort.  We already have three very
> capable scripts that can probably get the job done very well, so I don't
> think that the effort would be worthwhile for anyone else.
> 2. Convert one tip and post the output on the TipsSandbox page listed
>    above.
> 3. The vim community will come to a consensus on the best format for the
>    tips, and we will use the best script for the job.
> 4. Consensus achieved!!!
> 5. We will automate the task of converting all of the tips.
> 6. A group of wiki superusers will inspect 50 random tips and make sure
>    that they look good.
> 7. The invisible hand of The Wiki will then gradually make our wonderful
>    collection of Vim tips even more awesome than they've ever been before! ;D
>
> So, what do you guys think?
>
> Tom Purl

I have been reading posts on this subject with interest and think that
this is going to be a good decision. My only concern is on how we are
planning to support the existing rating system going forward and if we
can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the comments don't
look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to edit the tip to add
their comment at the end, but it will be nice if the comment itself
happens as a discussion (which appears as a discussion tab on the same
page).

--
Thanks,
Hari

--
Thanks,
Hari


 
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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Ali Polatel-2
In reply to this post by Zdenek Sekera
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

* Zdenek Sekera ([hidden email]) wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Spencer Collyer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: 06 March 2007 08:31
> > Cc: Vim Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
> >
> > On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:18:13 +0200, Ali Polatel wrote:
> > > And check out
> > > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
> > > to see how it parsed tip #1.
> >
> > Looks good. Only comment I have is it might be better if the 'By' and
> > 'On' lines for the comments were on the same line. Anything
> > that allows
> > more useful info on a screen at once is an improvement in my eyes.

Done.

>
> Yes, I very much agree, use screen real estate for useful info
> as much as possible. Otherwise good IMHO!

Thanks !

Another thing to mention is I found a great library called
HTML-WikiConverter. Unfortunately it's a perl library and I don't have the time
to convert stuff. But I found a rather ugly way to use it.HTML-WikiConverter
comes with a script html2wiki and vimtips.py calls this with commands.getstatusoutput().
This is a major decrease in performance considering creation of temporary files
but I don't think this is what we aim here.The library will help
especially with converting <a href.. tags and it adds <nowiki> tags to
appropriate places.
  Anyone who wants to test can get the library with
        perl -MCPAN -e 'install Bundle::HTMLWikiConverter'

  If vimtips.py can't find html2wiki it'll just issue a warning and go on
parsing.

Here is wikipedia page generated by the new version:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star

Any comments,ideas welcome.

Ali

P.S.: links like <a href="/tips/tip.php?tip_id=5">vimtip #5</a> don't
get parsed correctly but this will be done when we arrange the tips and
start to add them for good using html2wiki's --base-uri and --wiki-uri options

- --
Ali Polatel (hawking) <[hidden email]>
http://hawking.nonlogic.org/
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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

A.J.Mechelynck
In reply to this post by Hari Krishna Dara
Hari Krishna Dara wrote:
[...]

> I have been reading posts on this subject with interest and think that
> this is going to be a good decision. My only concern is on how we are
> planning to support the existing rating system going forward and if we
> can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the comments don't
> look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to edit the tip to add
> their comment at the end, but it will be nice if the comment itself
> happens as a discussion (which appears as a discussion tab on the same
> page).
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Hari
>

Comments can go on the wiki talk page associated with a given tip. If you look
at talk pages on ??.wikipedia.org, you'll see that in practice they mostly
adhere to a rather uniform format. If the case warrants, part or all of the
comments can later be incorporated (by the tip author or maintainer) into the
main page of the tip.

Best regards,
Tony.
--
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88. Every single time you press the 'Get mail' button...it does get new mail.
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RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Steve Hall-3
In reply to this post by Tom Purl 2
From: Hari Krishna Dara, Tue, March 06, 2007 11:33 am
>
> My only concern is on how we are planning to support the existing
> rating system going forward

I don't see how this can be accomplished in a wiki, but on the plus
side we'll be able to categorize and structure the tips better, as
well as link between.

> and if we can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the
> comments don't look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to
> edit the tip to add their comment at the end, but it will be nice if
> the comment itself happens as a discussion (which appears as a
> discussion tab on the same page).

I agree, is there any way the porting process can push comments to
each tip's respective discussion tab?



--
Steve Hall  [ digitect dancingpaper com ]

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RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Denis Perelyubskiy

On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:31:53 -0700, "Steve Hall"
<[hidden email]> said:
> From: Hari Krishna Dara, Tue, March 06, 2007 11:33 am
> > and if we can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the
> > comments don't look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to
> > edit the tip to add their comment at the end, but it will be nice if
> > the comment itself happens as a discussion (which appears as a
> > discussion tab on the same page).
>
> I agree, is there any way the porting process can push comments to
> each tip's respective discussion tab?

why don't we discuss that here:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star

:-)

Seriously though, as I had mentioned on the discussion page, for me as a
user of the tip, it is horribly counter-productive to go and read
twenty-five thousands comments on a page. I'd much rather just read a
"perfect" tip. This assumes, of course, that tip contributors care about
me as a user. I hope they do :)

Wikipedia model seems to work great. One page. All the information.
Discussion on a separate page.

One change: if it matters, we could reserve a line (or two) for a list
of contributors. This information is available from the history page for
those who care to look anyway, but maybe people care about their names
being mentioned.

Finally, on the subject of converting the comments - it is entirely a
manual process, that can not be automated. Comments need to be
integrated into the   body of the main tip (maybe the tip needs to be
adjusted, reworded, etc). We should just push out the existing pages,
and then set to work on reworking the tips by hand. Eventually we'll be
done.

In any case, I think this will be an extremely useful resource
(especially if we could then put VIM's documentation on there, and
cross-link)
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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Muskoka Auto Parts Limited
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Hash: SHA1


On 6-Mar-07, at 3:34 PM, Denis Perelyubskiy wrote:

>
> On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 11:31:53 -0700, "Steve Hall"
> <[hidden email]> said:
>> From: Hari Krishna Dara, Tue, March 06, 2007 11:33 am
>>> and if we can enforce a fixed style on commenting such that the
>>> comments don't look like a mess. I would imagine that one needs to
>>> edit the tip to add their comment at the end, but it will be nice if
>>> the comment itself happens as a discussion (which appears as a
>>> discussion tab on the same page).
>>
>> I agree, is there any way the porting process can push comments to
>> each tip's respective discussion tab?
>
> why don't we discuss that here:
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/ 
> TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star
>
> :-)
>
> Seriously though, as I had mentioned on the discussion page, for me  
> as a
> user of the tip, it is horribly counter-productive to go and read
> twenty-five thousands comments on a page. I'd much rather just read a
> "perfect" tip. This assumes, of course, that tip contributors care  
> about
> me as a user. I hope they do :)
>
> Wikipedia model seems to work great. One page. All the information.
> Discussion on a separate page.
>
> One change: if it matters, we could reserve a line (or two) for a list
> of contributors. This information is available from the history  
> page for
> those who care to look anyway, but maybe people care about their names
> being mentioned.
>
> Finally, on the subject of converting the comments - it is entirely a
> manual process, that can not be automated. Comments need to be
> integrated into the   body of the main tip (maybe the tip needs to be
> adjusted, reworded, etc). We should just push out the existing pages,
> and then set to work on reworking the tips by hand. Eventually  
> we'll be
> done.
>
> In any case, I think this will be an extremely useful resource
> (especially if we could then put VIM's documentation on there, and
> cross-link)


One of the first things I was thinking about mirrors the above comments.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Talk:Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/ 
TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star has a bunch of "thanks for the  
great tip!" type comments with more useage info interspersed.  I  
think those 'great tip' comments go to a separate page, while the  
'use # or % instead' kind of comments need to be edited into the  
actual tip itself.

I don't think that can be automated though - so the question is  
comments to a separate page and edited back in?  or all on one page  
and edited over to the secondary page...

Brian

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RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Tom Purl 2
In reply to this post by Denis Perelyubskiy
On Tue, March 6, 2007 2:34 pm, Denis Perelyubskiy wrote:
> Finally, on the subject of converting the comments - it is entirely a
> manual process, that can not be automated. Comments need to be
> integrated into the   body of the main tip (maybe the tip needs to be
> adjusted, reworded, etc). We should just push out the existing pages,
> and then set to work on reworking the tips by hand. Eventually we'll
> be done.

I agree mostly.  The process of moving the tips from vim.org to the wiki
host can be automated.  Ideally, I also think that it would be a good
idea to refactor some comments into the body of some tips, but I
certainly don't think that it's necessary for every tip.

For example, I wrote tip number 1280 which, in hindsight, is pretty
lame.  My tip has one comment from someone who agrees that my tip is
lame :)  Also, I imagine that about 5 people a year read this tip, and
those people probably were looking for something else anyways.

In that situation, do we *really* need to merge the comment with the
tip?  No one uses the tip, and the comment's pretty pointless.  Why
don't we just ignore it?

On the other hand, there are some tips that are used hundreds of times a
week.  These tips will probably be refactored and updated very quickly
due to the sheer number of eyeballs reading it.

So I guess what I'm saying is, what's wrong with waiting for "the
community" to refactor these tips using guidelines from the wikibook
admins?

Thanks!

Tom Purl


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RE: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Denis Perelyubskiy

On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 15:00:30 -0600 (CST), "Tom Purl" <[hidden email]>
said:
> On Tue, March 6, 2007 2:34 pm, Denis Perelyubskiy wrote:
> > Finally, on the subject of converting the comments - it is entirely a
> > manual process, that can not be automated. Comments need to be
> > integrated into the   body of the main tip (maybe the tip needs to be
> > adjusted, reworded, etc). We should just push out the existing pages,
> > and then set to work on reworking the tips by hand. Eventually we'll
> > be done.
[snip]
> So I guess what I'm saying is, what's wrong with waiting for "the
> community" to refactor these tips using guidelines from the wikibook
> admins?

Sorry, was not clear. That's what I am arguing for as well. I am not
saying "let's have admins do all the work before the site goes live". I
am saying let's leave things the way they are, provide a template, and
slowly set about refactoring tips (encouraging users to do the same). I
haven't checked, but if there is a wikipedia-style "this page still
needs your attention" notification that can be placed on the page, we
could do that as well.

so, i propose we move to agreeing what the format should be.

-denis
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Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction

Tobias Pflug
In reply to this post by Ali Polatel-2
On Tue, 2007-03-06 at 18:38 +0200, Ali Polatel wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> * Zdenek Sekera ([hidden email]) wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Spencer Collyer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > > Sent: 06 March 2007 08:31
> > > Cc: Vim Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: VimTips Wiki: New Direction
> > >
> > > On Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:18:13 +0200, Ali Polatel wrote:
> > > > And check out
> > > > http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox
> > > > to see how it parsed tip #1.
> > >
> > > Looks good. Only comment I have is it might be better if the 'By' and
> > > 'On' lines for the comments were on the same line. Anything
> > > that allows
> > > more useful info on a screen at once is an improvement in my eyes.
>
> Done.
>
> >
> > Yes, I very much agree, use screen real estate for useful info
> > as much as possible. Otherwise good IMHO!
>

If I might add my impression:

Generally I think it is indeed quite likable. Just some thoughts :

Looking at :
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Learning_the_vi_editor/Vim/TipsSandbox/Tip_1:_the_super_star

my thoughts:

1. focus/structure:

At the moment there is a bit of a lack of focus when I look at the page.
The eye-catcher is more or less the box with the author/creator/etc meta
information. The focus should however be on the actual text/body of the
tip. So maybe the text should be in a (differently colored?) box to gain
more attention and separate it from comments and meta info etc. Same
goes with the info boxes for comments on the tip and the comments
contents. I'd also suggest to maybe separate tips with
horizontal lines (maybe even removing the info boxes..) Also what about
perhaps indenting the comments a bit to the right?

2. formatting:

I think tex is right with its default formatting in which line length is
rather short. I think it would be nice if line breaks could be added ?
However while typing this I realize that this would suck when you break
up code..

I realize that currently it's still about figuring out how to properly
parse/convert the content etc.. just wanted to shout out what I have on
my mind about it.

thanks to those doing all the work, looking forward to use the wiki-tips
already..

regards,
Tobi

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