[bug report] Vim Help on IME

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[bug report] Vim Help on IME

Sean-130
Hi Bram,

It is a good time to consider this Vim help entry as a bug:

:help IME

    > 8.  Input on MS-Windows *mbyte-IME*
    > To input multibyte characters on Windows, you have to use Input
    > Method Editor(IME).  process of your editing text, you must
    > switch status (on/off) of IME many many many times.  Because IME
    > with status on is hooking all of your key inputs, you cannot
    > input 'j', 'k', or almost all of keys to Vim directly.

Those statements are not only not true, but also underestimate the
power of vim scripting.

VimIM plugin is created to do Input under Windows as well as Console
without using any external API.

As an example, all CJK in the VimIM manual (http://
vimim.googlecode.com/svn/vimim/vimim.html) were input directly from
within vim without following the "official" way suggested by Vim Help.

Sean

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Re: [bug report] Vim Help on IME

bill lam
Вск, 25 Июл 2010, Sean писал(а):

> Hi Bram,
>
> It is a good time to consider this Vim help entry as a bug:
>
> :help IME
>
>     > 8.  Input on MS-Windows *mbyte-IME*
>     > To input multibyte characters on Windows, you have to use Input
>     > Method Editor(IME).  process of your editing text, you must
>     > switch status (on/off) of IME many many many times.  Because IME
>     > with status on is hooking all of your key inputs, you cannot
>     > input 'j', 'k', or almost all of keys to Vim directly.
>
> Those statements are not only not true, but also underestimate the
> power of vim scripting.
>
> VimIM plugin is created to do Input under Windows as well as Console
> without using any external API.
>
> As an example, all CJK in the VimIM manual (http://
> vimim.googlecode.com/svn/vimim/vimim.html) were input directly from
> within vim without following the "official" way suggested by Vim Help.
>
> Sean
>
 
I know nothing about korean, but I think that help entry still stands
correct for japanese ime in that native japanese or people who would
routinely type japanese would not consider vimim plugin as an
alternative.  Unlike its chinese counterpart, the japanese ime for
window is very intelligent.

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Re: Vim Help on IME

Sean-130
Well, the buggy part of Vim Help is that the leading statement ("To
input multibyte characters on Windows, you have to use Input Method
Editor(IME)") leaves no room for any other choice.

VimIM is an example to prove the statement is not correct, at least
for Chinese input.

As for Korean input, I don't know anything about it. But I assume
VimIM can be used there because one Korean data file is provided by a
VimIM user (http://vimim-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/data/
vimim.hangul.txt).

As for Japanese input, no Vim plugin is found as of today. The trick
part seems the relationship of one-to-many is dynamic. To make it
work, the current Vim omni feature may need to be enhanced in such a
way that every item in the omni menu can be "played" using vim
scripting.

Overall, the direct input of multibyte characters is basically ignored
in almost all text editors, which depend on System IME or external IM
servers to input non-ascii. VimIM plugin is one example for Vim users,
showing that we can have yet another choice in the wonderland.

Sean

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Re: [bug report] Vim Help on IME

Tony Mechelynck
In reply to this post by Sean-130
On 25/07/10 23:02, Sean wrote:

> Hi Bram,
>
> It is a good time to consider this Vim help entry as a bug:
>
> :help IME
>
>      >  8.  Input on MS-Windows *mbyte-IME*
>      >  To input multibyte characters on Windows, you have to use Input
>      >  Method Editor(IME).  process of your editing text, you must
>      >  switch status (on/off) of IME many many many times.  Because IME
>      >  with status on is hooking all of your key inputs, you cannot
>      >  input 'j', 'k', or almost all of keys to Vim directly.
>
> Those statements are not only not true, but also underestimate the
> power of vim scripting.
>
> VimIM plugin is created to do Input under Windows as well as Console
> without using any external API.
>
> As an example, all CJK in the VimIM manual (http://
> vimim.googlecode.com/svn/vimim/vimim.html) were input directly from
> within vim without following the "official" way suggested by Vim Help.
>
> Sean
>

Let's say it is unclear. As far as I remember, or rather, let's say, all
the time since there has been a +multi_byte feature, Vim (when compiled
with +multi_byte and with 'encoding' set to a multibyte charset, of
course) has always allowed the user, even on Windows, to enter multibyte
characters without the need for an Input Method, by the following means:

- Any character, multibyte or otherwise, can be entered directly if your
keyboard has a key or key combination for it: for instance my Belgian
keyboard natively provides many accented characters, which, in Unicode,
are above 0x7F, therefore multibyte if 'encoding' is set to UTF-8. It
even has key combinations for the Euro sign and the French oe and OE
digraphs, none of which is included in the Latin1 character set.

- Any character for which a digraph is defined can be entered with a
Ctrl-K prefix, see :help i_CTRL-K

- Any character defined as the {rhs} of an imap or of an lmap
(including, in the latter case, those defined by a keymap) can be
entered by means of that mapping.

- Any Unicode codepoint at all (including "noncharacter" codepoints, of
which the Unicode Consortium has decided that they shall never be used)
can be entered by the method described under :help i_CTRL-V_digit if you
know its Unicode codepoint number in hex.

I believe that there is part of a sentence missing in that help
paragraph (or maybe thought to be implicit in the context of a
discussion about Input Methods), as follows:

To input multibyte characters *by means of an Input Method* on Windows,
you have to use an Input Method Editor (IME). (etc.)

In general, that whole section of the help sounds like it had been
written by someone with an imperfect knowledge of English. Maybe it
could be improved by rereading and copyediting.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
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Re: [bug report] Vim Help on IME

Bram Moolenaar
In reply to this post by Sean-130

Sean Ma wrote:

> It is a good time to consider this Vim help entry as a bug:
>
> :help IME
>
>     > 8.  Input on MS-Windows *mbyte-IME*
>     > To input multibyte characters on Windows, you have to use Input
>     > Method Editor(IME).  process of your editing text, you must
>     > switch status (on/off) of IME many many many times.  Because IME
>     > with status on is hooking all of your key inputs, you cannot
>     > input 'j', 'k', or almost all of keys to Vim directly.
>
> Those statements are not only not true, but also underestimate the
> power of vim scripting.
>
> VimIM plugin is created to do Input under Windows as well as Console
> without using any external API.
>
> As an example, all CJK in the VimIM manual (http://
> vimim.googlecode.com/svn/vimim/vimim.html) were input directly from
> within vim without following the "official" way suggested by Vim Help.

This part of the help is a bit old.
What change to the documentation do you suggest?

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Re: Vim Help on IME

Sean-130
In reply to this post by Tony Mechelynck
Hi Tony,

Everything from your message are clear except the following:

> To input multibyte characters *by means of an Input Method* on Windows,
> you have to use an Input Method Editor (IME). (etc.)

As a matter of fact, I can take VimIM as one "Input Method". I am on
Windows, and I can input multibyte characters (Chinese in my case)
without using the system IME on Windows. I even know some VimIM users
can type as many as 100 Chinese per minute, making VimIM qualified as
one full-fledged IM.

How about this statement?
  To input multibyte characters on Windows, you can use Input Method
Editor (IME).

Also, it looks like the term "IME" is only used in MS Windows, after
reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Method_Editor

My whole point is that we do have choice and we should avoid using
"have to" ...

Sean

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Re: Vim Help on IME

Yukihiro Nakadaira-2
In reply to this post by Sean-130
On 2010年07月26日 13:17, Sean wrote:

> Well, the buggy part of Vim Help is that the leading statement ("To
> input multibyte characters on Windows, you have to use Input Method
> Editor(IME)") leaves no room for any other choice.
>
> VimIM is an example to prove the statement is not correct, at least
> for Chinese input.
>
> As for Korean input, I don't know anything about it. But I assume
> VimIM can be used there because one Korean data file is provided by a
> VimIM user (http://vimim-data.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/data/
> vimim.hangul.txt).
>
> As for Japanese input, no Vim plugin is found as of today. The trick
> part seems the relationship of one-to-many is dynamic. To make it
> work, the current Vim omni feature may need to be enhanced in such a
> way that every item in the omni menu can be "played" using vim
> scripting.
>
> Overall, the direct input of multibyte characters is basically ignored
> in almost all text editors, which depend on System IME or external IM
> servers to input non-ascii. VimIM plugin is one example for Vim users,
> showing that we can have yet another choice in the wonderland.

Although this is not major input method, there is skk.vim that is an
implementation of SKK (Simple Kana to Kanji conversion program) for
Japanese.
http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=3118

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Re: Vim Help on IME

Tony Mechelynck
In reply to this post by Sean-130
On 26/07/10 21:50, Sean wrote:

> Hi Tony,
>
> Everything from your message are clear except the following:
>
>> To input multibyte characters *by means of an Input Method* on Windows,
>> you have to use an Input Method Editor (IME). (etc.)
>
> As a matter of fact, I can take VimIM as one "Input Method". I am on
> Windows, and I can input multibyte characters (Chinese in my case)
> without using the system IME on Windows. I even know some VimIM users
> can type as many as 100 Chinese per minute, making VimIM qualified as
> one full-fledged IM.
>
> How about this statement?
>    To input multibyte characters on Windows, you can use Input Method
> Editor (IME).
>
> Also, it looks like the term "IME" is only used in MS Windows, after
> reading
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_Method_Editor
>
> My whole point is that we do have choice and we should avoid using
> "have to" ...
>
> Sean
>

Yes, IIUC Windows calls it an "Input Method Editor" or IME (and WinXP
and later include a "Global IME" even in non-CJK-localized versions)
while the equivalent software item for Unix-like systems is called an "X
Input Method" or XIM and (in Vim) is a different feature: a Windows user
would typically see "+multi_byte_ime/dyn" as one item in his ":version"
listing while I (a Linux user) see "+multi_byte" and "+xim" as two
distinct items.

I think the guy who wrote that help paragraph may have wanted to say "In
order to input multibyte characters not present on your keyboard to most
Windows applications, you must use an IME. But when the IME is active,
it handles _all_ your keyboard input, so to use it with Vim it has to be
switched on for Insert mode (to type, e.g., Asian text) and off for
Normal mode (e.g. to move about with hjkl). The +multi_byte_ime feature
handles this. [...]" IOW the "must" does not necessarily apply to Vim.

I still believe that that whole help section would deserve rewriting by
someone not only knowing the ins and outs of input methods, but also
speaking English "like a native".


Best regards,
Tony.
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I forget the second."

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Re: Vim Help on IME

Sean-130
Hi Tony,

Based on discussion on this thread as well as relating topics from you
on this group, I would vote you to update/manage this part of Vim
Help.

Vim Help is important. It is translated to many languages.  (I know
there exists a Chinese version of Vim Help.)

I will be happy to review before it becomes "official".

By the way, I found your name is listed in my VimIM acknowledgement
part:

    >> #. 有几个世界难题是Vim官方论坛上Tony Mechelynck解答的。


Thanks

Sean


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Re: Vim Help on IME

Tony Mechelynck
On 27/07/10 21:29, Sean wrote:
> Hi Tony,
>
> Based on discussion on this thread as well as relating topics from you
> on this group, I would vote you to update/manage this part of Vim
> Help.

Hm, I am fluent in English, but it is not my mother language; and I've
never had much success trying to use an IM with Vim (when I want to type
hanzi and I don't have something that I can copy-paste, I try to
determine the Kangxi radical+strokes value and/or the Mandarin /
JapaneseOn / JapaneseKun reading, then I search that in a downloaded
version of the Unihan database to get the Unicode number). So I may try
to correct the language, but it won't be finished tomorrow and I can't
guarantee that I'll understand everything the right way.

>
> Vim Help is important. It is translated to many languages.  (I know
> there exists a Chinese version of Vim Help.)

According to vim.org, the only fully translated help is the French
version. It's a pity, because Vim's first-quality help is an important
part of what makes it such a good product.

>
> I will be happy to review before it becomes "official".
>
> By the way, I found your name is listed in my VimIM acknowledgement
> part:
>
>      >>  #. 有几个世界难题是Vim官方论坛上Tony Mechelynck解答的。

Yeah, I discussed some ideas with VimIM's author when he was writing it,
but I only helped something that was already well on the way, all the
merit is his. You'll even find my name under ":help credits", for the
help I give here; though I'm not the only one. I wonder why "Dr. Chip"
(Charles E. Campbell Jr., Ph.D.) who not only helps on the lists but
also contributed so many essential scripts, isn't listed: just run

        :0verbose vimgrep /\<Campbell\>/g $VIMRUNTIME/**/*.vim

and see what you get.

>
>
> Thanks
>
> Sean
>
>

Best regards,
Tony.
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