gpg + vimoutliner

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gpg + vimoutliner

Henrik Holst-5
Hi!

When I create a gpg encrypted vimoutliner document the first folding
does not work as it should.

My document test.otl:

cat > test.otl <<EOF
BULLITIN BOARDS
        anothertest.com
                user holst
                pass asdf
                mail
                : To: holst <[hidden email]>
                : Subject: Welcome to "hidden.se"
                : ...
                : --
                : Thanks, The Management
TEST 2
        this-is-a-test.org
                user apa
                mail
                : here it works. strange
                : ...
TEST 3
        this-test.net
                mail
                : and here, it works as well...
                : ...

 vim: set foldmethod=expr foldlevel=1:
EOF

And encrypt with: gpg -e test.otl

Try and unfold TEST 2 or TEST 3 and save. Then it refolds as it should.
But not if you unfold the first one. Very strange.  As I understand it,
vim re-reads the file because of the gpg encryption, and therefor also
re-folds everything.
       
I would like to be able to save gpg encrypted documents without risking
to display all my passwords to friends snooping over my sholder. :-)

--
Henrik Holst, Sweden      | TYPING IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THINKING
holst CHR(64) matmech.com | - A Manual for BASIC,
                          |   Darthmouth College, 1 October 1964
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Re: gpg + vimoutliner

Henrik Holst-5
On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 11:55:13PM +0200, Henrik Holst wrote:

> Hi!
>
> When I create a gpg encrypted vimoutliner document the first folding
> does not work as it should.
>
> My document test.otl:
>
> cat > test.otl <<EOF
> BULLITIN BOARDS
> anothertest.com
> user holst
> pass asdf
> mail
> : To: holst <[hidden email]>
> : Subject: Welcome to "hidden.se"
> : ...
> : --
> : Thanks, The Management
> TEST 2
> this-is-a-test.org
> user apa
> mail
> : here it works. strange
> : ...
> TEST 3
> this-test.net
> mail
> : and here, it works as well...
> : ...
>
>  vim: set foldmethod=expr foldlevel=1:
> EOF
>
> And encrypt with: gpg -e test.otl
>
> Try and unfold TEST 2 or TEST 3 and save. Then it refolds as it should.
> But not if you unfold the first one. Very strange.  As I understand it,
> vim re-reads the file because of the gpg encryption, and therefor also
> re-folds everything.
>
> I would like to be able to save gpg encrypted documents without risking
> to display all my passwords to friends snooping over my sholder. :-)
>
> --
> Henrik Holst, Sweden      | TYPING IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THINKING
> holst CHR(64) matmech.com | - A Manual for BASIC,
>                           |   Darthmouth College, 1 October 1964
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo/vimoutliner

And as usual the solution presents itself after explaining the problem
for another person.

Or at least a work around :-)

Put the mode line at the top of the file instead at the bottom.

--
Henrik Holst, Sweden      | TYPING IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR THINKING
holst CHR(64) matmech.com | - A Manual for BASIC,
                          |   Darthmouth College, 1 October 1964
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Re: gpg + vimoutliner

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Henrik Holst-5
That's the most bizarre thing I've ever heard. In other words,  gpg decrypts
to a different file than the one that was encrypted. Gpg just isn't supposed
to work that way.

I'd suggest you take the original, copy it somewhere else, encrypt and decrypt
it, and perform a diff. If there's a difference, this is a gpg issue. If
they're the same and you still see this symptom, it's the most bizarre VO
issue I've ever heard of.

SteveT

On Friday 25 July 2008 17:55, Henrik Holst wrote:

> Hi!
>
> When I create a gpg encrypted vimoutliner document the first folding
> does not work as it should.
>
> My document test.otl:
>
> cat > test.otl <<EOF
> BULLITIN BOARDS
> anothertest.com
> user holst
> pass asdf
> mail
>
> : To: holst <[hidden email]>
> : Subject: Welcome to "hidden.se"
> : ...
> : --
> : Thanks, The Management
>
> TEST 2
> this-is-a-test.org
> user apa
> mail
>
> : here it works. strange
> : ...
>
> TEST 3
> this-test.net
> mail
>
> : and here, it works as well...
> : ...
>
>  vim: set foldmethod=expr foldlevel=1:
> EOF
>
> And encrypt with: gpg -e test.otl
>
> Try and unfold TEST 2 or TEST 3 and save. Then it refolds as it should.
> But not if you unfold the first one. Very strange.  As I understand it,
> vim re-reads the file because of the gpg encryption, and therefor also
> re-folds everything.
>
> I would like to be able to save gpg encrypted documents without risking
> to display all my passwords to friends snooping over my sholder. :-)
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Re: gpg + vimoutliner

Peter Princz
In reply to this post by Henrik Holst-5
Hello world,

2008/7/25 Henrik Holst <[hidden email]>:
> Hi!
>
> When I create a gpg encrypted vimoutliner document the first folding
> does not work as it should.
> ...

glad to hear you found a workaround in the meantime.

While we are at it: I use vim's built-in encryption since several
years and without any problems, without any unexpected folding
behaviour.
I actually trust the built-in encryption so much, that even make my
daily backup of my very personal outlines to the office server's area
before I leave.
(Ride bike and take ferry with laptop.)

Is that a bad practice to leave files around with vim's internal
encryption? Shall I move to gpg?

I don't share my encrypted file with anyone, so I've never seen the
point of a public key encryption for this purpose.
When I want to communicate a subtree from my outline file, I export
the piece to a separate outline file, promote the root to level1,
remove encryption as a llast step and send it as a plain text.

But if you think gpg offers higher level of protection, I'm open to
move. What do you think?

Have a nice day,
  Peter
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Re: gpg + vimoutliner

Scott Scriven-2
* Peter Princz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I actually trust the built-in encryption so much, that even
> make my daily backup of my very personal outlines to the office
> server's area before I leave.
>
> But if you think gpg offers higher level of protection, I'm
> open to move. What do you think?

As far as I can tell, vim's encryption is pretty weak.  From the
documentation (":help encrypt" in vim 7.1)...

  - The algorithm used is breakable.  A 4 character key in about
    one hour, a 6 character key in one day (on a Pentium 133 PC).  
    This requires that you know some text that must appear in the
    file.  An expert can break it for any key.  When the text has
    been decrypted, this also means that the key can be revealed,
    and other files encrypted with the same key can be decrypted.

If you switch to gpg's public/private key encryption, it's less
convenient but much, much harder to break (assuming you keep your
private key safe).

I see some general tips here, to make things easier:

  http://www.vim.org/tips/tip.php?tip_id=90


-- Scott
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Re: gpg + vimoutliner

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Peter Princz
On Friday 25 July 2008 19:20, Peter Princz wrote:
> Hello world,
[clip]
> While we are at it: I use vim's built-in encryption since several
> years and without any problems, without any unexpected folding
> behaviour.
> I actually trust the built-in encryption so much, that even make my
> daily backup of my very personal outlines to the office server's area
> before I leave.
> (Ride bike and take ferry with laptop.)

Peter -- when you ride your bicycle with your laptop, how do you carry the
laptop? How long have you been doing this? Has anything shaken loose in the
laptop, or has it exhibited intermittent symptoms?

I'd love to ride my bicycle around with my laptop. but am afriad the banging
and jarring will harm the laptop.

SteveT

Steve Litt
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http://www.recession-relief.US

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Re: gpg + vimoutliner

Peter Princz
Hello Steve,

2008/7/26 Steve Litt <[hidden email]>:

> On Friday 25 July 2008 19:20, Peter Princz wrote:
>> Hello world,
> [clip]
>
> Peter -- when you ride your bicycle with your laptop, how do you carry the
> laptop? How long have you been doing this? Has anything shaken loose in the
> laptop, or has it exhibited intermittent symptoms?
>
> I'd love to ride my bicycle around with my laptop. but am afriad the banging
> and jarring will harm the laptop.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
>

I'm riding all year, have a "winter" bike (MTB, wide tyres) and a
"normal" (road) bike.
Haven't had a fall off-winter yet with the laptop, but had a few
during winter. Was gliding on ice on my back/bottom, backpack brushing
the asphalt.
(Will make my own studded tyres for this next winter.)

The laptop is a Thinkpad T60 with IBM's (Lenovo's) standard laptop
backpack. (Haven't had a choice, this is the corporate standard.) I
believe the frame is enforced with Magnesium as with Samsonite cases,
not pure plastic. Don't know if this is standard at other
manufacturers or not.

The bag is very well padded, no damage to the computer up to now,
screen is like new, not even the finishing peeling off. The only
complaint I got from PC helpdesk is that the keyboard is much more
dusty than others's keyboards, but they know I'm riding and brush or
vacuum-clean it for me once in a year.
The only problem is it lets the rain in at the zip but will not let
water out, so I have the laptop (and everything else, like paper-based
Filofaxes) in separate plastic bags inside the backpack.

I did 2500 km so far with this laptop on my back, not terrain but
rough asphalt with potholes and pavé between a small town and a small
village, no problems.
I'm bunnyhoping the bigger ones, have clipless pedals, have rigid
steel forks in both bikes, no spring or oil to dampen the shocks.
I never let run the computer while riding, putting to standby is the
minimum, the HDD not to spin during riding. (It would halt anyway, it
has a shock detection feature that would stop and park the HDD at the
smallest move.)

Hope this helps, let me know if further elaboration is needed.

Have a nice day,
  Peter
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Re: gpg + vimoutliner

Steve Litt
On Saturday 26 July 2008 04:35, Peter Princz wrote:

> I'm riding all year, have a "winter" bike (MTB, wide tyres) and a
> "normal" (road) bike.
> Haven't had a fall off-winter yet with the laptop, but had a few
> during winter. Was gliding on ice on my back/bottom, backpack brushing
> the asphalt.
> (Will make my own studded tyres for this next winter.)
>
> The laptop is a Thinkpad T60 with IBM's (Lenovo's) standard laptop
> backpack. (Haven't had a choice, this is the corporate standard.) I
> believe the frame is enforced with Magnesium as with Samsonite cases,
> not pure plastic. Don't know if this is standard at other
> manufacturers or not.
>
> The bag is very well padded, no damage to the computer up to now,
> screen is like new, not even the finishing peeling off. The only
> complaint I got from PC helpdesk is that the keyboard is much more
> dusty than others's keyboards, but they know I'm riding and brush or
> vacuum-clean it for me once in a year.
> The only problem is it lets the rain in at the zip but will not let
> water out, so I have the laptop (and everything else, like paper-based
> Filofaxes) in separate plastic bags inside the backpack.
>
> I did 2500 km so far with this laptop on my back, not terrain but
> rough asphalt with potholes and pavé between a small town and a small
> village, no problems.
> I'm bunnyhoping the bigger ones, have clipless pedals, have rigid
> steel forks in both bikes, no spring or oil to dampen the shocks.
> I never let run the computer while riding, putting to standby is the
> minimum, the HDD not to spin during riding. (It would halt anyway, it
> has a shock detection feature that would stop and park the HDD at the
> smallest move.)
>
> Hope this helps, let me know if further elaboration is needed.

So if I understand right, you carry your computer in a laptop carrier inside a
backpack, relying on your body to act as a shock absorber, and your body
seems to be doing its job admirably, and you've done this for 2500km with no
apparent malfunction of the laptop.

Have I read you correctly?

And I was worried about carrying my laptop a mile to the library :-)

Thanks Peter!

SteveT

Steve Litt
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http://www.recession-relief.US

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Re: gpg + vimoutliner

Peter Princz
Hello Steve,

2008/7/26 Steve Litt <[hidden email]>:

>
> So if I understand right, you carry your computer in a laptop carrier inside a
> backpack, relying on your body to act as a shock absorber, and your body
> seems to be doing its job admirably, and you've done this for 2500km with no
> apparent malfunction of the laptop.
>
> Have I read you correctly?
>
> And I was worried about carrying my laptop a mile to the library :-)
>
> Thanks Peter!
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
>

sorry for being foggy, I'm not native English speaker. Yes, you've
read me correctly, I'm commuting to work with my laptop in the
backpack eack workday, all year, approx. 2500 km till now with this
particular Thinkpad T60.

Only one minor correction: there's not a "laptop carrier" inside the
backpack as you wrote, but it's the standard IBM laptop-backpack
alone, the one with IBM and Thinkpad logo on it. We can choose between
a courier bag that you put on one of your shoulders and this backpack
model when we get the laptop from the IT helpdesk. I went for the
backpack because of the bike. But it is standard accessory of the
laptop like the mouse or the AC adapter. Sorry cannot describe it any
better.

The only extra protection I do is to put the laptop into a waterproof
plastic (polyethylene) bag (the one you get in shops for free) first,
before putting it into the backpack.

Yes, no apparent malfunction of the laptop till now, only slightly
more than normal dust on the keyboard, but that can be brushed or
vacuum-cleaned from time to time.

I'd be more concerned of the bike parking out while I'm in the library
than the laptop while riding.

Have a nice day,
  Peter
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Re: biking with a notebook

Scott Scriven-2
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
* Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Peter -- when you ride your bicycle with your laptop, how do
> you carry the laptop? How long have you been doing this? Has
> anything shaken loose in the laptop, or has it exhibited
> intermittent symptoms?
>
> I'd love to ride my bicycle around with my laptop. but am
> afriad the banging and jarring will harm the laptop.

I've been carrying my notebook(s) with me for at least 8 years,
including walking trips, car trips, a couple dozen trips through
the airport, and lots of biking trips.  I've spent a lot of time
"in the field" with my notebook, setting up last-mile 'net access
and such, not to mention frequent trips to the coffee shop.  I
haven't noticed any damage or even wear-and-tear due to travel,
thanks to my backpack.

I have a backpack called a 'zip drive', designed to hold a
notebook computer.  It basically has a padded sleeve in the main
compartment where the notebook goes, and I put the power adapter
just outside the notebook sleeve.

That reminds me.  I did actually get a bit of damage once, but
only once.  The first time I put my notebook in my backpack (old
notebook, previous backpack), the power adapter scratched the
notebook case.  So, I promptly went and got a better backpack
(the old one wasn't designed for a computer).  It's holding up
well; I've been taking it everywhere for 8 years.


The type of notebook is important too.  I prefer small/light
notebooks.  Portability is important to me, and not just because
I was doing a lot of wireless surveying for a while.  I like to
be able to pick up my notebook by the front corner without it
bending under its own weight, and hold it with one hand while I
type with the other.  Fitting in my coat pocket is another bonus,
during the winter.

I had an old 6lb notebook which was too heavy for its own good
(its plastic case broke in several places under its own weight),
so I've been getting lighter models (3lbs or so) ever since.  
I've also made sure to get magnesium cases instead of plastic.

If you want to get something really damage-resistant, there are
Panasonic Toughbooks...  they're built like tanks, and usually
have a built-in handle, so you can just carry it naked.  Or, you
could get a new eeePC-style notebook with a solid-state disk.


Anyway, that was a lot of rambling, but maybe it helps.


-- Scott
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Re: biking with a notebook

Lucas González
> could get a new eeePC-style notebook with a solid-state disk.

I've been looking at netbooks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook and
I'm not sure I can add vim + vimoutliner + python/perl.  Any
experiences on this?  Any other factors to consider?

I tried the keyboard at the shop, with perhaps 5 lines of typing in
all, and I didn't know my fingers were so big, but I was standing and
maybe sitting is a better position to type.

Being able to have room in the screen is good too, 10" better than 7" IMO.

Lucas
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Re: biking with a notebook

Henrik Holst-5
On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 08:16:04AM +0100, Lucas González wrote:
> > could get a new eeePC-style notebook with a solid-state disk.
>
> I've been looking at netbooks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook and
> I'm not sure I can add vim + vimoutliner + python/perl.  Any
> experiences on this?  Any other factors to consider?
>
> I tried the keyboard at the shop, with perhaps 5 lines of typing in
> all, and I didn't know my fingers were so big, but I was standing and
> maybe sitting is a better position to type.

(As we are on the subject...)

Which model did you try? The later modells (1000 model) claims to have a
"92% size keyboard"
http://www.newlaunches.com/archives/asus_10inch_eee_1000official.php

I did find some evidence that the 900 series has the small keyboard too
http://www.absolutegadget.com/200807111466/reviews/mobile-computing/long-term-review-asus-eee-pc-900.html
 
> Being able to have room in the screen is good too, 10" better than 7" IMO.

I mostly use fullscreen applications and make good use of many desktops.
However, there are some lower bound and I think that 800×480 falls right
below that. My personal feeling is that 1024 horizontal pixels is what
you need to be able to read PDF files on the display.

That said, I am thinking of buying a ASUS EEE 1000 with Linux:
http://asus.com/products.aspx?l1=24&l2=164&l3=0&l4=0&model=2284&modelmenu=1
(They recommend Vista by some weird reason, cant imagine why...)

Are there anyone out there who had tried it yet?  The display and the
keyboard are my two biggest concerns. Also the speed of the SSD drive
can be an issue for me, if its much slower than a normal laptop disk.

> Lucas
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holst CHR(64) matmech.com | - A Manual for BASIC,
                          |   Darthmouth College, 1 October 1964
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Re: biking with a notebook

Lucas González
I tried the asus Eee PC 4G - the new models with larger screen and
keyboard confirm my suspicion I'd better wait before I pay.  The
market seems to be almost ripe for my dreamed "ThinkPC".

We vimoutliner users need a good keyboard and a wide enough display.
And the ability to install vim, vimoutliner, python/perl and whatever
other extra software.  (While I'm at it, I'll add an outliner like
FreeMind or vym.  But that'll be about it for me, I think.)

Lucas
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Re: biking with a notebook

Steve Litt
On Sunday 27 July 2008 06:53, Lucas González wrote:
> I tried the asus Eee PC 4G - the new models with larger screen and
> keyboard confirm my suspicion I'd better wait before I pay.  The
> market seems to be almost ripe for my dreamed "ThinkPC".
>
> We vimoutliner users need a good keyboard and a wide enough display.
> And the ability to install vim, vimoutliner, python/perl and whatever
> other extra software.  (While I'm at it, I'll add an outliner like
> FreeMind or vym.  But that'll be about it for me, I think.)

It's been much too long in coming, but someday voice recognition will improve
to the point where a keyboard is unnecessary. At that point you can digitally
dictate while taking a walk through the woods. At that point a PC the size of
a cellphone becomes at least somewhat practical.

At that point we'll need to rethink VimOutliner, replacing the keyboard
optimized ,, with something optimized for voice.

SteveT

Steve Litt
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Re: biking with a notebook

Stefan Schmiedl
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:22:19 -0400
Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> At that point we'll need to rethink VimOutliner, replacing the keyboard
> optimized ,, with something optimized for voice.

Blasphemy!

:-)
s.
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Re: biking with a notebook

Steve Litt
On Sunday 27 July 2008 13:45, Stefan Schmiedl wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:22:19 -0400
>
> Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > At that point we'll need to rethink VimOutliner, replacing the keyboard
> > optimized ,, with something optimized for voice.
>
> Blasphemy!
>
> :-)
>
> s.

Yeah, "replacing" is the wrong word. What I should have said is "augmenting".
The ,, commands are here to stay.

SteveT

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Re: biking with a notebook

Mark S.
In reply to this post by Scott Scriven-2
"Vim Outliner User and Developer Mailing List" <[hidden email]>
> Steve wrote:
> Yeah, "replacing" is the wrong word. What I
> should have said is "augmenting".
> The ,, commands are here to stay.

Actually, there are no ,, commands in my debian version. Why is that? Would be
happy if someone could tell me how to turn them back on. (instead of \\).

There's just *too* many big laptops out there. Seems like everyone wants to
have a desktop environment, no matter the cost.  Or maybe manufacturers think
they can only make money selling large machines.  Just like car manufacturers
think they can only make money selling SUVs. To me its obvious that there is
a need for a high quality light-weight machine with lower power requirements.
Heavier machines tend to disintegrate under their own weight when carried in
a backpack or messenger bag. They often don't have enough power to provide
for even one leg of a commute. People that commute, bike, camp, work from a
coffee shop, do inventory management, meter-readers, estimators, surveyors,
quality control, bird watchers ... anyone who wants to walk around and still
use a computer could all benefit from such a machine.

Just went for a 20 mile bike ride on Friday. In the messenger bag was a shared
OLPC. Booting from a chip allows it to run debian. With practice, I find I
can type pretty well. For extended sessions, I can plug in a USB keyboard. A
portable mouse, about the size of a cigar, makes manipulating easier. I've
changed default font-sizes on an application by application basis so that my
aging eyes can see the screen. Usually. Ctrl+ enlarges the fonts under
firefox. A pair of reading glasses helps with the rest. An external antenna
allows me to connect with sources 30 yards away.  The biggest problem is that
everything is just a bit too slow. And there seems to be an occasional  
network/memory problem when running under debian.

A similar machine but with more computational/memory power, with all
networking problems resolved would be the ticket. Some people are still using
640x480 machines, so its not the end of the world to use a 1380 wide screen.

-- Mark
 
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Re: biking with a notebook

Scott Scriven-2
In reply to this post by Lucas González
* Lucas Gonz?lez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > could get a new eeePC-style notebook with a solid-state disk.
>
> I've been looking at netbooks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netbook and
> I'm not sure I can add vim + vimoutliner + python/perl.  Any
> experiences on this?

You can put whatever you like on it, but you may need a SD card
for extra storage.  And you may want to install a different OS,
which will improve software selection but perhaps make some of
the hardware harder to support (multitouch on the touchpad, for
example, may not work by default).

I'll probably get one and put Ubuntu on it, eventually.

> I tried the keyboard ... I didn't know my fingers were so big,

That's my main reason for waiting.  I want the 92% keyboard or
95% or whatever it is.  I've often thought that my 3lb notebook
was about 10% too big, and a 92% model would be just about
right...  especially if the screen could flip around for tablet
use.


-- Scott
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Re: biking with a notebook

Scott Scriven-2
* Lucas Gonz?lez <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I tried the keyboard ... I didn't know my fingers were so big,

I hate to reply twice, but last time I tried to type on an eeePC,
not only did I miss the keys I was aiming for, I found I often
missed the keyboard entirely.  I'd try to hit Escape or Tab or
Backspace, and find the table instead.


-- Scott
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Re: biking with a notebook

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Mark S.
On Sunday 27 July 2008 17:05, Mark S. wrote:

> "Vim Outliner User and Developer Mailing List"
> <[hidden email]>
>
> > Steve wrote:
> > Yeah, "replacing" is the wrong word. What I
> > should have said is "augmenting".
> > The ,, commands are here to stay.
>
> Actually, there are no ,, commands in my debian version. Why is that? Would
> be happy if someone could tell me how to turn them back on. (instead of
> \\).

Oh you're kidding!

The selection of ,, was based on one thing and one thing alone -- quick
keyboard access with an easy finger. \\ is a reach with the little finger --
you might as well just use Emacs.

I was under the impression that the Debian package was created by Matej. Matej
was one of the three original people on this mailing list. I can't imagine
him changing ,, to \\ -- he knew exactly why it was ,, and I think he liked
it that way.

As far as how to fix it, I think you'd take all places where "\\" is assigned
to variable maplocalleader, and change the "\\" to ",,". You can find most of
htem like this:

cd ~/.vim
grep -ir maplocalleader * | grep vo_

Also, change it in ~/.vimoutlinerrc.

Crude, but effective -- 15 minutes of work. You could probably even write a
script to do it, so that every time you upgrade your Debian package, you can
run your ,, restore.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

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