how does russians use vim?

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how does russians use vim?

bill lam
Just curious.  Users who use Cyrillic (or Greek) have to shift toggle
in order to type Latin letters.  However vim by default only recognize
ascii such as hjkl or modkey+ascii such <C-F>.  Will it be very clumsy
to use vim to edit text such as email?

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Tony Mechelynck

On 01/02/09 17:11, bill lam wrote:
> Just curious.  Users who use Cyrillic (or Greek) have to shift toggle
> in order to type Latin letters.  However vim by default only recognize
> ascii such as hjkl or modkey+ascii such<C-F>.  Will it be very clumsy
> to use vim to edit text such as email?
>

        :help 'keymap'
        :help 'langmap'
        :help mbyte-keymap

Use a keymap (one of those distributed with Vim, or an own-coded one
using |mbyte-keymap|), and set 'keymap', if your keyboard normally sends
Latin text (e.g. at the shell prompt, which also expects ASCII), and you
want to change the interpretation for Insert mode (and the operands of r
t f etc.). Use 'langmap' if your keyboard normally sends non-Latin text
(Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, whatever) and you want to change the
interpretation in Normal and Command-line modes. For RTL languages
additional steps are required to make Vim ready, see |hebrew.txt|,
|farsi.txt| and |arabic.txt|.

For CJK, of course, you would use a full-fledged Input Method.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
This is the story of the bee
Whose sex is very hard to see

You cannot tell the he from the she
But she can tell, and so can he

The little bee is never still
She has no time to take the pill

And that is why, in times like these
There are so many sons of bees.

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Cyril Slobin-4

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Tony Mechelynck
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> t f etc.). Use 'langmap' if your keyboard normally sends non-Latin text
> (Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, whatever) and you want to change the
> interpretation in Normal and Command-line modes.

Plea from a Russian Vim user: 'langmap' doesn't work with
encodig=utf8, and who is using 8-bit encodings today? Therefore
'keymap' is the only option, but to have two different keyboard
switches (one for Vim and other system-wide) is a pain. Last time I
have checked, fixing 'langmap' for unicode has a very low priority.
:-(

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Tony Mechelynck

On 01/02/09 18:29, Cyril Slobin wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Tony Mechelynck
> <[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> t f etc.). Use 'langmap' if your keyboard normally sends non-Latin text
>> (Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, whatever) and you want to change the
>> interpretation in Normal and Command-line modes.
>
> Plea from a Russian Vim user: 'langmap' doesn't work with
> encodig=utf8, and who is using 8-bit encodings today? Therefore
> 'keymap' is the only option, but to have two different keyboard
> switches (one for Vim and other system-wide) is a pain. Last time I
> have checked, fixing 'langmap' for unicode has a very low priority.
> :-(
>

Actually, according to the help (last paragraph above ":help greek"),
'langmap' may be specified using multi-byte characters, but it will use
them modulo 256. Two different keys will still produce different results
unless their Cyrillic characters are at a "distance" which is an integer
multiple of 256 in the Unicode standard. (This is assuming that the
codepoint rank is used. If, instead, Vim uses the leader byte or the
last trailer byte, then IMHO the help would deserve a clarification.)

As for Vim vs. system-wide, do you mean you never use the shell command
line? Well, I suppose there are people nowadays who have never heard of
any of COMMAND.COM, cmd.exe, Terminal.app, xterm, konsole or
gnome-terminal, not to mention a plain old text-only console. Or else,
maybe on your system it takes all its commands in Cyrillic?


Best regards,
Tony.
--
"I don't believe in astrology.  But then I'm an Aquarius, and Aquarians
don't believe in astrology."
                -- James R. F. Quirk

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Agathoklis D. Hatzimanikas
In reply to this post by Cyril Slobin-4

On Sun, Feb 01, at 08:29 Cyril Slobin wrote:

>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Tony Mechelynck
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > t f etc.). Use 'langmap' if your keyboard normally sends non-Latin text
> > (Cyrillic, Greek, Hebrew, Arabic, whatever) and you want to change the
> > interpretation in Normal and Command-line modes.
>
> Plea from a Russian Vim user: 'langmap' doesn't work with
> encodig=utf8, and who is using 8-bit encodings today? Therefore
> 'keymap' is the only option, but to have two different keyboard
> switches (one for Vim and other system-wide) is a pain. Last time I
> have checked, fixing 'langmap' for unicode has a very low priority.
> :-(
>

There is patch for this, see the vim patches page.

Hopefully will be integrated into mainline soon.

Regards,
Ag.

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Anton-3

bill lam wrote:
> Just curious.  Users who use Cyrillic (or Greek) have to shift
> toggle in order to type Latin letters.  However vim by default
> only recognize ascii such as hjkl or modkey+ascii such <C-F>.
> Will it be very clumsy to use vim to edit text such as email?

I use 'keymap' option (for corresponding :help topics see very
informative first post from Tony). 'keymap' option allows me to
press CTRL-6 in insert mode and after that Cyrillic characters
are seems to be sent by my keyboard like they are sent if you
have switched system-wide input method. But the coolest thing is
that system-wide input method remains on ASCII, so that it's only
VIM, who is involved in this magic. This option works for me very
reliable across all my unixes, windows boxes, via SSH, remote
desktops, from the collegue computer, which even don't have
russian input method installed, ... And of course, if I leave
insert mode and go to normal, all commands are still works as
usual - you can <C-F>, <C-B>, hjkl etc just normally in normal
mode. Coming back in insert mode you will find your 'keymap' is
still activated. So, to type ASCII, you need to use CTRL-6 again.
Very nice solution in my opinion.

Cyril Slobin wrote:

> Plea from a Russian Vim user: 'langmap' doesn't work with
> encodig=utf8, and who is using 8-bit encodings today?

Until now I haven't yet tried 'langmap' option. I seem to be
satisfied with 'keymap' for my needs.

> Therefore 'keymap' is the only option, but to have two
> different keyboard switches (one for Vim and other system-wide)
> is a pain.

I use 'keymap' all the days in VIM for my russian edits since
2005, and I find it really convenient to have special switch for
activating keymap in VIM being different from system-wide switch
of input mode - they does different things after all.

--
Anton.

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Taras P. Ivashchenko
In reply to this post by bill lam
Hello!
You can read about it in my blog about vim:
http://allaboutvim.blogspot.com/2008/01/blog-post.html

On Feb 1, 7:11 pm, bill lam <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just curious.  Users who use Cyrillic (or Greek) have to shift toggle
> in order to type Latin letters.  However vim by default only recognize
> ascii such as hjkl or modkey+ascii such <C-F>.  Will it be very clumsy
> to use vim to edit text such as email?
>
> --
> regards,
> ====================================================
> GPG key 1024D/4434BAB3 2008-08-24
> gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3
> 唐詩183 杜甫  客至
>     舍南舍北皆春水  但見群鷗日日來  花徑不曾緣客掃  蓬門今始為君開
>     盤飧市遠無兼味  樽酒家貧只舊醅  肯與鄰翁相對飲  隔籬呼取盡餘杯
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Re: how does russians use vim?

Valery Kondakoff
In reply to this post by Agathoklis D. Hatzimanikas

On 01.02.2009 21:13, Agathoklis D. Hatzimanikas wrote:

>> Plea from a Russian Vim user: 'langmap' doesn't work with
>> encodig=utf8, and who is using 8-bit encodings today?
>
> There is patch for this, see the vim patches page.
> Hopefully will be integrated into mainline soon.

Please, Bram, include this patch: we really need it in the mainline! It
is much more convenient to use langmaps instead of keymaps, but it is
impossible currently if you have set Vim to use UTF-8. :(

--
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Re: how does russians use vim?

bill lam
In reply to this post by Taras P. Ivashchenko
Thank all for informative responses.  If I understand correctly, use
keymap if your default keyboard from xorg.conf or setkbmap is latin;
but use langmap if system keyboard layout is ru.

One more question, suppose the system keyboard layout is russian. In
programs other than vim where langmap is not available,  how to press
those cmd/alt/meta keys?  For instance, to press <C-Z> (suspense),
does it just press ctrl-Я or need to shift_toggle to us, then press
ctrl-Z?

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Cyril Slobin-4
In reply to this post by Tony Mechelynck

On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 9:01 PM, Tony Mechelynck
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> 'langmap' may be specified using multi-byte characters, but it will use
> them modulo 256. Two different keys will still produce different results
> unless their Cyrillic characters are at a "distance" which is an integer
> multiple of 256 in the Unicode standard.

I'll check this, thank you. If this works well, this may be a solution.

> As for Vim vs. system-wide, do you mean you never use the shell command
> line? Well, I suppose there are people nowadays who have never heard of
> any of COMMAND.COM, cmd.exe, Terminal.app, xterm, konsole or

No, no, the problem is different. I do use cmd.exe in Windows, bash in
terminal window in Linux, and even bash in Windows (MSYS port)
sometimes! And when I am to type, for example, a line

echo "Привет"

anywhere in the system (cmd.exe in windows, terminal in linux, firefox
window to write this one letter in google mail), I am to type "echo"
in Latin letters, switch to Cyrillic (using the system-wide switch
(Alt-Shift in most systems, but this may vary)), and type "Привет".
Anywhere in the system BUT in Vim! In fact, if I forget this
misfeature and type this in Vim using system-wide switch, the Cyrillic
letters will be put in buffer in insert mode. But then, when I'll
leave the insert mode, and my keyboard still send Cyrillic -- it is a
pain. And it is too easy to forget to use the different switch.

> not to mention a plain old text-only console.

I should not praise myself, but console-cyrillic package in Debian is
partially based on my work back in 1999. So I know a bit about work in
plain old console, and how to use Cyrillic letters in it. ;-)

--
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<[hidden email]> `it means just what I choose it to mean'

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Bram Moolenaar
In reply to this post by Valery Kondakoff


Valery Kondakoff wrote:

> On 01.02.2009 21:13, Agathoklis D. Hatzimanikas wrote:
>
> >> Plea from a Russian Vim user: 'langmap' doesn't work with
> >> encodig=utf8, and who is using 8-bit encodings today?
> >
> > There is patch for this, see the vim patches page.
> > Hopefully will be integrated into mainline soon.
>
> Please, Bram, include this patch: we really need it in the mainline! It
> is much more convenient to use langmaps instead of keymaps, but it is
> impossible currently if you have set Vim to use UTF-8. :(

The remark for this patch had sunk in the todo list, which is as deep as
the ocean.  I'll float it upwards.

This patch was originally made in 2006.  Is there an updated version?

--
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what happens. -- A system administrator

 /// Bram Moolenaar -- [hidden email] -- http://www.Moolenaar.net   \\\
///        sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
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Re: how does russians use vim?

Valery Kondakoff

On 02.02.2009 21:42, Bram Moolenaar wrote:

>
> Valery Kondakoff wrote:
>
>> On 01.02.2009 21:13, Agathoklis D. Hatzimanikas wrote:
>>
>>>> Plea from a Russian Vim user: 'langmap' doesn't work with
>>>> encodig=utf8, and who is using 8-bit encodings today?
>>> There is patch for this, see the vim patches page.
>>> Hopefully will be integrated into mainline soon.
>> Please, Bram, include this patch: we really need it in the mainline! It
>> is much more convenient to use langmaps instead of keymaps, but it is
>> impossible currently if you have set Vim to use UTF-8. :(
> The remark for this patch had sunk in the todo list, which is as deep as
> the ocean.  I'll float it upwards.
> This patch was originally made in 2006.  Is there an updated version?

As far as I know here is the updated patch for Vim 7.1:

http://lostclus.linux.kiev.ua/%D0%94%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%8B/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%87%D0%B8?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=vim71-langmapmb-4.patch

Should we ask the author to update the patch to Vim 7.2?

--
Best regards,
 Valery Kondakoff

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Re: how does russians use vim?

Agathoklis D. Hatzimanikas
In reply to this post by Bram Moolenaar

On Mon, Feb 02, at 07:42 Bram Moolenaar wrote:

>
>
> Valery Kondakoff wrote:
>
> > On 01.02.2009 21:13, Agathoklis D. Hatzimanikas wrote:
> >
> > >> Plea from a Russian Vim user: 'langmap' doesn't work with
> > >> encodig=utf8, and who is using 8-bit encodings today?
> > >
> > > There is patch for this, see the vim patches page.
> > > Hopefully will be integrated into mainline soon.
> >
> > Please, Bram, include this patch: we really need it in the mainline! It
> > is much more convenient to use langmaps instead of keymaps, but it is
> > impossible currently if you have set Vim to use UTF-8. :(
>
> The remark for this patch had sunk in the todo list, which is as deep as
> the ocean.  I'll float it upwards.
>
> This patch was originally made in 2006.  Is there an updated version?
>

Hi Bram and thanks for your interest.
It's a usability issue and like such should have priority (in my
opinion).

As for the patch, there is a link to an updated version in the vim
patches page, which applies cleanly in 7.2 and with some offsets in
vim-7.2 patchlevel 65.

When we updated the vim patches page with John Becket, we've tried to
communicate with the author, but we've got no response; anyway I will try
again (in the next few days, since I am busy now). If it's not possible to
be in touch, I can re-diff it once more (if doesn't apply to the last
patchlevel) and I can send it to you.

I am using this patch from the day it was published and I didn't noticed
any (at least visible) misbehavior but some more testing is needed of
course.

Regards,
Ag.

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