how to prevent loading python.vim

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how to prevent loading python.vim

bill lam
Vim from debian (huge build) defaults to load syntax files such as
python.vim from its system runtime.  Is it possible to prevent loading
some or all syntax file when starting vim by adding some command
inside .vimrc?  I want to load only those syntax file that I needed.

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

MarcWeber
Hi lam,

Excerpts from bill lam's message of Fri Aug 06 07:36:26 +0200 2010:
> Vim from debian (huge build) defaults to load syntax files such as
> python.vim from its system runtime.  Is it possible to prevent loading
> some or all syntax file when starting vim by adding some command
> inside .vimrc?  I want to load only those syntax file that I needed.

syntax files are not read until you open a file of that filetype.
Assuming that you know that you can

a) use ~/.vim/after/syntax/python.vim
   and run syn off or such
b) use syn of globally and use
  runtime syntax/python.vim
  in your ~/.vim/ftplugin/python.vim
  file. This "manually" sources the syntax files.

Anyway talk about your real problem, why do you want to source only
syntax files you need?

Marc Weber

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

bill lam
Птн, 06 Авг 2010, Marc Weber писал(а):

> Hi lam,
>
> Excerpts from bill lam's message of Fri Aug 06 07:36:26 +0200 2010:
> > Vim from debian (huge build) defaults to load syntax files such as
> > python.vim from its system runtime.  Is it possible to prevent loading
> > some or all syntax file when starting vim by adding some command
> > inside .vimrc?  I want to load only those syntax file that I needed.
>
> syntax files are not read until you open a file of that filetype.
> Assuming that you know that you can
>
> a) use ~/.vim/after/syntax/python.vim
>    and run syn off or such
> b) use syn of globally and use
>   runtime syntax/python.vim
>   in your ~/.vim/ftplugin/python.vim
>   file. This "manually" sources the syntax files.
>
> Anyway talk about your real problem, why do you want to source only
> syntax files you need?
>
> Marc Weber
>

I set compatible and enable syntax in ~/.vimrc
If I run "vim ~/.vimrc" it complained errors in python.vim ,
scriptnames show ,
 35: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/vim.vim
 36: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/perl.vim
 37: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/ruby.vim
 38: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/python.vim

might be that vim is complied with support for these language, but
it actually loaded all these perl,..,python syntax file when editing .vimrc

VIM - Vi IMproved 7.2 (2008 Aug 9, compiled Jul 12 2010 12:47:31)
Included patches: 1-445
Modified by [hidden email]
Compiled by buildd@
Huge version with GTK2 GUI.  Features included (+) or not (-):
+arabic +autocmd +balloon_eval +browse ++builtin_terms +byte_offset +cindent
+clientserver +clipboard +cmdline_compl +cmdline_hist +cmdline_info +comments
+cryptv +cscope +cursorshape +dialog_con_gui +diff +digraphs +dnd -ebcdic
+emacs_tags +eval +ex_extra +extra_search +farsi +file_in_path +find_in_path
+float +folding -footer +fork() +gettext -hangul_input +iconv +insert_expand
+jumplist +keymap +langmap +libcall +linebreak +lispindent +listcmds +localmap
+menu +mksession +modify_fname +mouse +mouseshape +mouse_dec +mouse_gpm
-mouse_jsbterm +mouse_netterm -mouse_sysmouse +mouse_xterm +multi_byte
+multi_lang -mzscheme +netbeans_intg -osfiletype +path_extra +perl +postscript
+printer +profile +python +quickfix +reltime +rightleft +ruby +scrollbind
+signs +smartindent -sniff +startuptime +statusline -sun_workshop +syntax
+tag_binary +tag_old_static -tag_any_white +tcl +terminfo +termresponse
+textobjects +title +toolbar +user_commands +vertsplit +virtualedit +visual
+visualextra +viminfo +vreplace +wildignore +wildmenu +windows +writebackup
+X11 -xfontset +xim +xsmp_interact +xterm_clipboard -xterm_save
   system vimrc file: "$VIM/vimrc"
     user vimrc file: "$HOME/.vimrc"
      user exrc file: "$HOME/.exrc"
  system gvimrc file: "$VIM/gvimrc"
    user gvimrc file: "$HOME/.gvimrc"
    system menu file: "$VIMRUNTIME/menu.vim"
  fall-back for $VIM: "/usr/share/vim"
Compilation: gcc -c -I. -Iproto -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DFEAT_GUI_GTK  -pthread -I/usr/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/include/cairo -I/usr/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/include/gio-unix-2.0/ -I/usr/include/pixman-1 -I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include     -Wall -g -O2    -D_REENTRANT -D_GNU_SOURCE -DDEBIAN  -fstack-protector -I/usr/local/include -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64  -I/usr/lib/perl/5.10/CORE  -I/usr/include/python2.6 -I/usr/include/tcl8.4  -D_REENTRANT=1  -D_THREAD_SAFE=1  -D_LARGEFILE64_SOURCE=1  -I/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/x86_64-linux -DRUBY_VERSION=18
Linking: gcc   -L.  -rdynamic -Wl,-export-dynamic  -Wl,-E  -Wl,--as-needed -o vim   -pthread -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -latk-1.0 -lpangoft2-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lpangocairo-1.0 -lcairo -lgio-2.0 -lpango-1.0 -lfreetype -lfontconfig -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lgthread-2.0 -lrt -lglib-2.0   -lXt -lncurses -lselinux  -lacl -lgpm -Wl,-E  -fstack-protector -L/usr/local/lib  -L/usr/lib/perl/5.10/CORE -lperl -L/usr/lib/python2.6/config -lpython2.6 -lutil -Xlinker -export-dynamic -Wl,-O1 -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions -L/usr/lib -ltcl8.4 -lieee -lruby1.8 -lrt -lm  

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====================================================
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gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

Nikolay Aleksandrovich Pavlov
Ответ на сообщение «Re: how to prevent loading python.vim»,
присланное в 14:08:40 06 августа 2010, Пятница,
отправитель bill lam:

It is a syntax/vim.vim feature. To disable it set ``g:vim_synembed'' to 0 in
your vimrc, see ``:h g:vim_synembed'' for more details.

Текст сообщения:

> Птн, 06 Авг 2010, Marc Weber писал(а):
> > Hi lam,
> >
> > Excerpts from bill lam's message of Fri Aug 06 07:36:26 +0200 2010:
> > > Vim from debian (huge build) defaults to load syntax files such as
> > > python.vim from its system runtime.  Is it possible to prevent loading
> > > some or all syntax file when starting vim by adding some command
> > > inside .vimrc?  I want to load only those syntax file that I needed.
> >
> > syntax files are not read until you open a file of that filetype.
> > Assuming that you know that you can
> >
> > a) use ~/.vim/after/syntax/python.vim
> >
> >    and run syn off or such
> >
> > b) use syn of globally and use
> >
> >   runtime syntax/python.vim
> >   in your ~/.vim/ftplugin/python.vim
> >   file. This "manually" sources the syntax files.
> >
> > Anyway talk about your real problem, why do you want to source only
> > syntax files you need?
> >
> > Marc Weber
>
> I set compatible and enable syntax in ~/.vimrc
> If I run "vim ~/.vimrc" it complained errors in python.vim ,
> scriptnames show ,
>  35: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/vim.vim
>  36: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/perl.vim
>  37: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/ruby.vim
>  38: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/python.vim
>
> might be that vim is complied with support for these language, but
> it actually loaded all these perl,..,python syntax file when editing .vimrc
>
> VIM - Vi IMproved 7.2 (2008 Aug 9, compiled Jul 12 2010 12:47:31)
> Included patches: 1-445
> Modified by [hidden email]
> Compiled by buildd@
> Huge version with GTK2 GUI.  Features included (+) or not (-):
> +arabic +autocmd +balloon_eval +browse ++builtin_terms +byte_offset
> +cindent +clientserver +clipboard +cmdline_compl +cmdline_hist
> +cmdline_info +comments +cryptv +cscope +cursorshape +dialog_con_gui +diff
> +digraphs +dnd -ebcdic +emacs_tags +eval +ex_extra +extra_search +farsi
> +file_in_path +find_in_path +float +folding -footer +fork() +gettext
> -hangul_input +iconv +insert_expand +jumplist +keymap +langmap +libcall
> +linebreak +lispindent +listcmds +localmap +menu +mksession +modify_fname
> +mouse +mouseshape +mouse_dec +mouse_gpm -mouse_jsbterm +mouse_netterm
> -mouse_sysmouse +mouse_xterm +multi_byte +multi_lang -mzscheme
> +netbeans_intg -osfiletype +path_extra +perl +postscript +printer +profile
> +python +quickfix +reltime +rightleft +ruby +scrollbind +signs
> +smartindent -sniff +startuptime +statusline -sun_workshop +syntax
> +tag_binary +tag_old_static -tag_any_white +tcl +terminfo +termresponse
> +textobjects +title +toolbar +user_commands +vertsplit +virtualedit
> +visual +visualextra +viminfo +vreplace +wildignore +wildmenu +windows
> +writebackup +X11 -xfontset +xim +xsmp_interact +xterm_clipboard
> -xterm_save
>    system vimrc file: "$VIM/vimrc"
>      user vimrc file: "$HOME/.vimrc"
>       user exrc file: "$HOME/.exrc"
>   system gvimrc file: "$VIM/gvimrc"
>     user gvimrc file: "$HOME/.gvimrc"
>     system menu file: "$VIMRUNTIME/menu.vim"
>   fall-back for $VIM: "/usr/share/vim"
> Compilation: gcc -c -I. -Iproto -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DFEAT_GUI_GTK  -pthread
> -I/usr/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/include/atk-1.0
> -I/usr/include/cairo -I/usr/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/include/gio-unix-2.0/
> -I/usr/include/pixman-1 -I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/libpng12
> -I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include     -Wall -g -O2  
> -D_REENTRANT -D_GNU_SOURCE -DDEBIAN  -fstack-protector
> -I/usr/local/include -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64
> -I/usr/lib/perl/5.10/CORE  -I/usr/include/python2.6 -I/usr/include/tcl8.4
> -D_REENTRANT=1  -D_THREAD_SAFE=1  -D_LARGEFILE64_SOURCE=1
> -I/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/x86_64-linux -DRUBY_VERSION=18 Linking: gcc   -L.
> -rdynamic -Wl,-export-dynamic  -Wl,-E  -Wl,--as-needed -o vim   -pthread
> -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -latk-1.0 -lpangoft2-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0
> -lpangocairo-1.0 -lcairo -lgio-2.0 -lpango-1.0 -lfreetype -lfontconfig
> -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lgthread-2.0 -lrt -lglib-2.0   -lXt -lncurses
> -lselinux  -lacl -lgpm -Wl,-E  -fstack-protector -L/usr/local/lib
> -L/usr/lib/perl/5.10/CORE -lperl -L/usr/lib/python2.6/config -lpython2.6
> -lutil -Xlinker -export-dynamic -Wl,-O1 -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions
> -L/usr/lib -ltcl8.4 -lieee -lruby1.8 -lrt -lm

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

Nikolay Aleksandrovich Pavlov
Ответ на сообщение «Re: how to prevent loading python.vim»,
присланное в 15:21:32 06 августа 2010, Пятница,
отправитель ZyX:

Sorry, g:vimsyn_embed instead of g:vim_synembed.

Текст сообщения:

> Ответ на сообщение «Re: how to prevent loading python.vim»,
> присланное в 14:08:40 06 августа 2010, Пятница,
> отправитель bill lam:
>
> It is a syntax/vim.vim feature. To disable it set ``g:vim_synembed'' to 0
> in your vimrc, see ``:h g:vim_synembed'' for more details.
>
> Текст сообщения:
> > Птн, 06 Авг 2010, Marc Weber писал(а):
> > > Hi lam,
> > >
> > > Excerpts from bill lam's message of Fri Aug 06 07:36:26 +0200 2010:
> > > > Vim from debian (huge build) defaults to load syntax files such as
> > > > python.vim from its system runtime.  Is it possible to prevent
> > > > loading some or all syntax file when starting vim by adding some
> > > > command inside .vimrc?  I want to load only those syntax file that I
> > > > needed.
> > >
> > > syntax files are not read until you open a file of that filetype.
> > > Assuming that you know that you can
> > >
> > > a) use ~/.vim/after/syntax/python.vim
> > >
> > >    and run syn off or such
> > >
> > > b) use syn of globally and use
> > >
> > >   runtime syntax/python.vim
> > >   in your ~/.vim/ftplugin/python.vim
> > >   file. This "manually" sources the syntax files.
> > >
> > > Anyway talk about your real problem, why do you want to source only
> > > syntax files you need?
> > >
> > > Marc Weber
> >
> > I set compatible and enable syntax in ~/.vimrc
> > If I run "vim ~/.vimrc" it complained errors in python.vim ,
> > scriptnames show ,
> >
> >  35: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/vim.vim
> >  36: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/perl.vim
> >  37: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/ruby.vim
> >  38: /usr/share/vim/vim72/syntax/python.vim
> >
> > might be that vim is complied with support for these language, but
> > it actually loaded all these perl,..,python syntax file when editing
> > .vimrc
> >
> > VIM - Vi IMproved 7.2 (2008 Aug 9, compiled Jul 12 2010 12:47:31)
> > Included patches: 1-445
> > Modified by [hidden email]
> > Compiled by buildd@
> > Huge version with GTK2 GUI.  Features included (+) or not (-):
> > +arabic +autocmd +balloon_eval +browse ++builtin_terms +byte_offset
> > +cindent +clientserver +clipboard +cmdline_compl +cmdline_hist
> > +cmdline_info +comments +cryptv +cscope +cursorshape +dialog_con_gui
> > +diff +digraphs +dnd -ebcdic +emacs_tags +eval +ex_extra +extra_search
> > +farsi +file_in_path +find_in_path +float +folding -footer +fork()
> > +gettext -hangul_input +iconv +insert_expand +jumplist +keymap +langmap
> > +libcall +linebreak +lispindent +listcmds +localmap +menu +mksession
> > +modify_fname +mouse +mouseshape +mouse_dec +mouse_gpm -mouse_jsbterm
> > +mouse_netterm -mouse_sysmouse +mouse_xterm +multi_byte +multi_lang
> > -mzscheme
> > +netbeans_intg -osfiletype +path_extra +perl +postscript +printer
> > +profile +python +quickfix +reltime +rightleft +ruby +scrollbind +signs
> > +smartindent -sniff +startuptime +statusline -sun_workshop +syntax
> > +tag_binary +tag_old_static -tag_any_white +tcl +terminfo +termresponse
> > +textobjects +title +toolbar +user_commands +vertsplit +virtualedit
> > +visual +visualextra +viminfo +vreplace +wildignore +wildmenu +windows
> > +writebackup +X11 -xfontset +xim +xsmp_interact +xterm_clipboard
> > -xterm_save
> >
> >    system vimrc file: "$VIM/vimrc"
> >    
> >      user vimrc file: "$HOME/.vimrc"
> >      
> >       user exrc file: "$HOME/.exrc"
> >  
> >   system gvimrc file: "$VIM/gvimrc"
> >  
> >     user gvimrc file: "$HOME/.gvimrc"
> >     system menu file: "$VIMRUNTIME/menu.vim"
> >  
> >   fall-back for $VIM: "/usr/share/vim"
> >
> > Compilation: gcc -c -I. -Iproto -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DFEAT_GUI_GTK  -pthread
> > -I/usr/include/gtk-2.0 -I/usr/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/include/atk-1.0
> > -I/usr/include/cairo -I/usr/include/pango-1.0
> > -I/usr/include/gio-unix-2.0/ -I/usr/include/pixman-1
> > -I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -I/usr/include/glib-2.0
> > -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include     -Wall -g -O2 -D_REENTRANT -D_GNU_SOURCE
> > -DDEBIAN  -fstack-protector
> > -I/usr/local/include -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64
> > -I/usr/lib/perl/5.10/CORE  -I/usr/include/python2.6 -I/usr/include/tcl8.4
> > -D_REENTRANT=1  -D_THREAD_SAFE=1  -D_LARGEFILE64_SOURCE=1
> > -I/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/x86_64-linux -DRUBY_VERSION=18 Linking: gcc   -L.
> > -rdynamic -Wl,-export-dynamic  -Wl,-E  -Wl,--as-needed -o vim   -pthread
> > -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -latk-1.0 -lpangoft2-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0
> > -lpangocairo-1.0 -lcairo -lgio-2.0 -lpango-1.0 -lfreetype -lfontconfig
> > -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lgthread-2.0 -lrt -lglib-2.0   -lXt
> > -lncurses -lselinux  -lacl -lgpm -Wl,-E  -fstack-protector
> > -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/lib/perl/5.10/CORE -lperl
> > -L/usr/lib/python2.6/config -lpython2.6 -lutil -Xlinker -export-dynamic
> > -Wl,-O1 -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions -L/usr/lib -ltcl8.4 -lieee -lruby1.8
> > -lrt -lm

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

Benjamin Fritz
In reply to this post by bill lam


On Aug 6, 5:08 am, bill lam <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I set compatible ... in ~/.vimrc

Why on earth do you do that?

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

bill lam
Птн, 06 Авг 2010, Ben Fritz писал(а):
>
>
> On Aug 6, 5:08 am, bill lam <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > I set compatible ... in ~/.vimrc
>
> Why on earth do you do that?
>

Because there is such an option. ;-)

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

bill lam
In reply to this post by Nikolay Aleksandrovich Pavlov
Птн, 06 Авг 2010, ZyX писал(а):

> Ответ на сообщение <<Re: how to prevent loading python.vim>>,
> присланное в 14:08:40 06 августа 2010, Пятница,
> отправитель bill lam:
>
> It is a syntax/vim.vim feature. To disable it set ``g:vim_synembed'' to 0 in
> your vimrc, see ``:h g:vim_synembed'' for more details.
>
> Текст сообщения:
> [---=| TOFU protection by t-prot: 85 lines snipped |=---]
>

Thanks! let g:vimsyn_embed=0 solved the problem.

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====================================================
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gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

Charles Campbell
In reply to this post by bill lam
bill lam wrote:

> Птн, 06 Авг 2010, Ben Fritz писал(а):
>    
>>
>> On Aug 6, 5:08 am, bill lam<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>      
>>> I set compatible ... in ~/.vimrc
>>>        
>> Why on earth do you do that?
>>
>>      
> Because there is such an option. ;-)
>
>    
Cute -- so you're loading a "huge" vim, with lots of bells and whistles,
and then telling it via your .vimrc that you're happy with very few
features -- apparently, just syntax highlighting.

Since you want "syn on", I suppose a "normal" vim would do.  Why not?  
Smaller footprint, quicker loading, etc.

Chip Campbell

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

bill lam
When I compiled vim from source, I chose "normal" built. However since
debian squeeze can offer updated vim, I switched to use vim from its
repository.  It offers vim.gtk (huge) and vim.tiny (indeed tiny) but
no "normal" version.  Now I link vim to vim.tiny and only run vim.gtk
when I need more functionalities.

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

pansz
In reply to this post by Charles Campbell

On Aug 13, 5:13 am, Charles Campbell <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> Since you want "syn on", I suppose a "normal" vim would do.  Why not?  
> Smaller footprint, quicker loading, etc.

debian packages 4 kinds of vim:

1. vim-tiny: This is Tiny version of vim, pretty useless IMO.
2. vim: This is Huge version of vim without GUI support and without
X11 support.
3. vim-gtk: This is Huge version with GTK+2 support.
4. vim-gnome: This is vim-gtk with gnome/kde session support.

So you see, you cannot get a normal version from debian package
manager. And you really need the Huge version just in order to get the
syntax highlight.

Personally, I always compile my own vim, because I want a console-only
vim with X11 support. (console vim with X11 supports mouse)

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

bill lam
Чтв, 12 Авг 2010, pansz писал(а):
> 1. vim-tiny: This is Tiny version of vim, pretty useless IMO.

This is an insult to the original vi. ;-)

More seriously, after using vim.tiny for a week, I found it fit for
most jobs that I needed such as composing email and editing script
files.

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

pansz

On Aug 13, 10:19 am, bill lam <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Чтв, 12 Авг 2010, pansz писал(а):
> > 1. vim-tiny: This is Tiny version of vim, pretty useless IMO.
> This is an insult to the original vi. ;-)
> More seriously, after using vim.tiny for a week, I found it fit for
> most jobs that I needed such as composing email and editing script
> files.

I want a vim with +eval feature, which implies at least the Normal
version.

+eval means you can have conditional statement and many fundamental
features for creating any plug-ins. (in vim, no plug-ins often means
no syntax-highlights)

I won't consider it useful if the script doesn't even support the "if"
statement.

Of course, your mind may vary.

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Re: how to prevent loading python.vim

Tony Mechelynck
On 13/08/10 05:13, pansz wrote:

>
> On Aug 13, 10:19 am, bill lam<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Чтв, 12 Авг 2010, pansz писал(а):
>>> 1. vim-tiny: This is Tiny version of vim, pretty useless IMO.
>> This is an insult to the original vi. ;-)
>> More seriously, after using vim.tiny for a week, I found it fit for
>> most jobs that I needed such as composing email and editing script
>> files.
>
> I want a vim with +eval feature, which implies at least the Normal
> version.
>
> +eval means you can have conditional statement and many fundamental
> features for creating any plug-ins. (in vim, no plug-ins often means
> no syntax-highlights)
>
> I won't consider it useful if the script doesn't even support the "if"
> statement.
>
> Of course, your mind may vary.
>

My point of view is different: I don't know what I may someday want to
use, so I compile a Vim with everything I can (Huge features, all kinds
of mice, including at least xterm and GPM, that I can get included,
GTK2, Gnome, all interpreters that my distro offers and I can puzzle out
how to put in; I even include +xterm_save which AFAIK can only be done
by modifying feature.h, not via configure) except a very few features
which I know I'll never want (only one so far besides what configure
auto-excludes: -tag_old_static, which also AFAIK requires patching
feature.h).

Then I compile (under the executable name "vi" and in a shadow directory
so as not to confuse the Make machinery) a "tiny" version with the bare
minimum, both as a "sanity test" that new features can actually be left
off, and to see how wide the range is in executable file size (currently
0.5 vs 2 MB). I use it only rarely, but still more than actually "never".


Best regards,
Tony.
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Everyone talks about apathy, but no one _does_ anything about it.

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