minimizing metadata

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minimizing metadata

David J Patrick-2
The need for metadata, in some form, or another, is obvious.
and we already have an object that suits it;

<

user-defined, non-wrapping text

so why can't we just say that

<<space><something>:[anything]

qualifies

whether is parses later is a separate issue

as in

        Heading
                < cost:$
                < title:Thing
                < style:booklet
                < meta:  #this one's empty, but still valid,
                < arbitrary:data  #oh, and it has a comment

it couldn't be simpler
do we need anything more ?
djp
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Re: minimizing metadata

Stefan Schmiedl
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:09:40 -0400
David J Patrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The need for metadata, in some form, or another, is obvious.
> and we already have an object that suits it;
>
> <
>
> user-defined, non-wrapping text
>
> so why can't we just say that
>
> <<space><something>:[anything]

+1

>
> qualifies
>
> whether is parses later is a separate issue

+5

>
> as in
>
> Heading
> < cost:$
> < title:Thing
> < style:booklet
> < meta:  #this one's empty, but still valid,
> < arbitrary:data  #oh, and it has a comment

heh ... to be correct, you'd have to say
                < arbitrary:data #oh, and it has something that might be parsed as comment
because
 - if the data is arbitrary, you have nothing left to separate a comment from the data
 - whether a character sequence is a comment is a matter of the parser, not the writer

The less syntax noise meta data causes, the better.

s.
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Re: minimizing metadata

David J Patrick-2
Stefan Schmiedl wrote:

>> as in
>>
>> Heading
>> < cost:$
>> < title:Thing
>> < style:booklet
>> < meta:  #this one's empty, but still valid,
>> < arbitrary:data  #oh, and it has a comment
>
> heh ... to be correct, you'd have to say
>                 < arbitrary:data #oh, and it has something that might be parsed as comment
> because
>  - if the data is arbitrary, you have nothing left to separate a comment from the data
>  - whether a character sequence is a comment is a matter of the parser, not the writer
absolutely right, if my parser handles comments, I'll feel free to put
them in.
>
> The less syntax noise meta data causes, the better.
that means <anything> is anything, it's then up to the parser(s)
djp

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Re: minimizing metadata

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
What about putting metadata in a directory tree where files are keys and
filecontents are values?

On Saturday 17 October 2009 17:09:40 David J Patrick wrote:

> The need for metadata, in some form, or another, is obvious.
> and we already have an object that suits it;
>
> <
>
> user-defined, non-wrapping text
>
> so why can't we just say that
>
> <<space><something>:[anything]
>
> qualifies
>
> whether is parses later is a separate issue
>
> as in
>
> Heading
> < cost:$
> < title:Thing
> < style:booklet
> < meta:  #this one's empty, but still valid,
> < arbitrary:data  #oh, and it has a comment
>
> it couldn't be simpler
> do we need anything more ?
> djp
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo


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Re: minimizing metadata

Stefan Schmiedl
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:20:20 -0400
Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What about putting metadata in a directory tree where files are keys and
> filecontents are values?

first reflex: too many too small files
second reaction: how many keystrokes to change the data?

s.
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Re: minimizing metadata

Steve Litt
On Sunday 18 October 2009 08:38:50 Stefan Schmiedl wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:20:20 -0400
>
> Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > What about putting metadata in a directory tree where files are keys and
> > filecontents are values?
>
> first reflex: too many too small files

If it's a directory tree, the number of files per directory is small enough to
impact neither performance nor human findability.


> second reaction: how many keystrokes to change the data?

Good point. I was envisioning VO generated metadata such as for cloning, and
as such reads and writes of metadata would occur as a natural consequence of
the VO activity being done, requiring no more keystrokes. If the metadata is
human generated, is it really metadata at all, or is it just plain data?

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


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Re: minimizing metadata

David J Patrick-2
Steve Litt wrote:
> Good point. I was envisioning VO generated metadata such as for cloning, and
> as such reads and writes of metadata would occur as a natural consequence of
> the VO activity being done, requiring no more keystrokes.
Ahhh, NOW I see what you're on about! This take of metadata is
interesting, but not at all what I was talking about.

  If the metadata is
> human generated, is it really metadata at all, or is it just plain data?
It IS metadata (data about data) that refers to the content of a file,
For example, If I wanted to include the cost, or the date, or printing
instruction, to be munged by a post processor but otherwise not printed,
I need a way to embed that info. Herb introduced me to his method (which
makes a lot of sense) and this thread is just a proposal to simplify and
formalize that method. I am already using something like it for my
otl2aft.awk post processing.
djp
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Re: minimizing metadata

Herbert Sitz
David J Patrick-2 wrote
Steve Litt wrote:
>  If the metadata is
> human generated, is it really metadata at all, or is it just plain data?
It IS metadata (data about data) that refers to the content of a file,
For example, If I wanted to include the cost, or the date, or printing
instruction, to be munged by a post processor but otherwise not printed,
I thinik I may have used term 'Metadata', but it doesn't matter what word is used.  There are certainly ways of using the new functionality that don't involve anything resembling metadata at all.  The thing I did was add to VO a new type of text (i.e, different in kind from all other text blocks) that can easily remain collapsed (i.e. invisible) in a document while all other text blocks are expanded.  This makes it different from other text in the same way as other text is different from headings.

Text blocks can all be invisible/collapsed at the same time as all headings are expanded/visible.
"Metadata" text can all be invisible/collapsed at the same time as all text blocks are expanded//visible.

This creates natural way of hiding data elements that a user wants to maintain, but doesn't necesssarily want to see when they're working with the regular text of a document.

David, yeah, your suggestions about formatting would work fine.  The setup in files I sent you is just first "proof of concept" crack at things.  I had squiggle brackets marking begin and end of each element partly because I envisioned allowing multiple elements on a line.  If you want to have restriction of one element per line you can definitely get rid of them.  And the end-of-line comments are easily accommodated.

I would suggest having previx character that is different from that used by any other kind of text block, though.
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Re: minimizing metadata

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by David J Patrick-2
On Sunday 18 October 2009 11:04:43 David J Patrick wrote:

> Steve Litt wrote:
> > Good point. I was envisioning VO generated metadata such as for cloning,
> > and as such reads and writes of metadata would occur as a natural
> > consequence of the VO activity being done, requiring no more keystrokes.
>
> Ahhh, NOW I see what you're on about! This take of metadata is
> interesting, but not at all what I was talking about.
>
>   If the metadata is
>
> > human generated, is it really metadata at all, or is it just plain data?
>
> It IS metadata (data about data) that refers to the content of a file,
> For example, If I wanted to include the cost, or the date, or printing
> instruction, to be munged by a post processor but otherwise not printed,
> I need a way to embed that info. Herb introduced me to his method (which
> makes a lot of sense) and this thread is just a proposal to simplify and
> formalize that method. I am already using something like it for my
> otl2aft.awk post processing.
> djp

Hmm. I just read the Wikipedia page on metadata and will now need to give this
quite a bit of thought.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


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Re: minimizing metadata

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Herbert Sitz
On Sunday 18 October 2009 11:32:40 Herbert Sitz wrote:

> David J Patrick-2 wrote:
> > Steve Litt wrote:
> >>  If the metadata is
> >> human generated, is it really metadata at all, or is it just plain data?
> >
> > It IS metadata (data about data) that refers to the content of a file,
> > For example, If I wanted to include the cost, or the date, or printing
> > instruction, to be munged by a post processor but otherwise not printed,
>
> I thinik I may have used term 'Metadata', but it doesn't matter what word
> is used.  There are certainly ways of using the new functionality that
> don't involve anything resembling metadata at all.  The thing I did was add
> to VO a new type of text (i.e, different in kind from all other text
> blocks) that can easily remain collapsed (i.e. invisible) in a document
> while all other text blocks are expanded.  This makes it different from
> other text in the same way as other text is different from headings.

Ohhhhhhhhhh, now I get it. It's not metadata at all. The operant thing is it's
stuff you normally don't want to see at all, kind of like the formatting codes
in Wordperfect 5. Then you have some command, let's call it Reveal_Codes for
the sake of this email, that expands some/all of them. That makes perfect
sense. Thanks for the clarification -- the metadata thing was confusing the
heck out of me.

It's important that whatever format is chosen is unlikely to occur in real
headlines or body text.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


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